You are absolutely correct and very perceptive for pointing that out.

The Blade Runner Future is much more marketable and most in our collective memory at the moment.

I like the idea of the visionary future, I'd forgotten that. One which makes you think (a la Heinlein).

I want to think about the possibilites of Functional Socialism and Communism that works, or some other sort of mind blowing possibility.

Bring on the the 3 breasted Amazons and disease free love!

hmm I wonder what he makes of Ursula Le Guins 'The Dispossesed'? Or perhaps her Ekumen universe - as rich as Iain M Banks Culture universe. As I see it both straddle the spectrum offered above. Maybe we have grown out of the utopia-ism of the 60s / 70s into a sci fi thats broader in scope than the authors hopes for the future. Like the peeps at Taittinger say, 'Different not better.'

Oh and as an aside - Stargate isnt visionary? :D

Ken MacLeod's books (esp. Star Fraction, Stone Canal, The Cassini Division & The Sky Road) are about the only sci-fi I read from the 90s, and his whole obsession is working through various anarchist and communist utopian ideals. Far from simplistic and highly intelligent. Fantastic depiction of a technological singularity. A bit harsh on the Greens, but he concedes this at some point. Recommended.

I'd question the idea that visionary = utopian. Visionary creations are certainly about seeing more, but seem to be most potent when not bound to specifically sociological visions. They can coincide, but why force it? My general sense of difference between visionary and utopian is: In the face of a genuine evolutionary crisis, utopian ideals might distract from squarely facing the problems at hand, whereas visionary ideals might represent breakthroughs in dealing with the problem. Utopia is a carrot on a stick, but a vision is, or can be, the carrot, right there.

I guess in sci-fi, though, the genre's remit can push visionary into overlapping much more with utopian.

Bennu (Paul): Thanks for this thoughtful post. Norm's always been a good kid and a thoughtful fiction writer.

Cap'n Marrrrk: I'm a bit dubious as to whether "functional socialism and communism" is ultimately even a coherent concept. See the work of economists Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek on economic **calculation** under socialist/communist property rules. On the other hand, see Murray Bookchin's overall best anthology (still in print by Black Rose publishers up in Toronto...), **Post-Scarcity Anarchism & other Essays**. Cybernated Intelligence will soon obviate virtually all human labor and virtually all heretofore (and even current) economic (catallactic) transactions. As Arnold Kling--Ph.D economist and self-made $80-million dollar entrepreneur has remarked: "I'm in the middle of Kurzweil's new book [*The Singularity is Near*]. My sense is that the discontinuities that he is talking about will render even the best 20th century economics obsolete."

The best take on this is Jim "Cyber" Lewis' *Robotopia* page at http://www.cyberlewis.com/graphic/posthuman/topia/Robotopia.htm See also Marhall Brain's musings at MarshallBrain.com

And always bear carefully in mind, as it is easy to forget, with all the day-to-day hub-bub: WE ARE **LIVING** SCIENCE "FICTION". We are living the battle against *1984* and *Brave New World*. We are living the fight against the possibility of *The Andromeda Strain* and *Deep Impact*. We are living (or VERY soon will be) the themes of *I, Robot*, *AI* and *Bicentennial Man*. We are living (or soon will be) the theme(s) of *2001* and *2010*. And, while I think we'll fare very well ultimately (to say the very least), we are living the battle against the scenarios of *Soylent Green* and *Logan's Run* and *THX1138* (as well as the brilliant Peter Hyam's works *Capricorn One* and *Outland*, as well as many of the themes in the *Alien* series [espically the first 2])---not to mention (but I am!) Ira Levin's *This Perfect Day*. And we, surely, are living the themes of the inimitable film *Altered States*.

We're already **LIVING** SCIENCE "FICTION", boys & girls. Join the club...and Live Long & Prosper...

Love to all and ciao for now...

Damien,

I definitely agree with you about Iain Banks. Afterall we here at Futurehi.net are host to one of the top 3 Iain Banks fan sites. Here's the url:

http://futurehi.net/phlebas/

Stargate? Visionary? I'm assuming you're kidding, but if you're not... With the very rare exception of a few isolated episodes, I have yet to discover any story arc that was in the least bit more positive than the present we have now. All the main story arcs of Stargate have centered around bigger, more powerful aliens hell-bent on domination, war and outright destruction of humanity, on earth and off. Stargate is all about war - either ground and air assults, space battles, or cynical political machinations at home or conspiracies even among their allies. Every species in Stargate is either a victim to space vampires, hosts to space parasites, or under the thumb of the Ori Inquisition.

I've heard for years from various people that there's nothing interesting in writing if there's not conflict - basically within or between species, human or/and otherwise. While I disagree, I think that a large reason this is thought by others (much less that commercialism (I can't think of the right word, here....) is the best economic model, if indeed an economic model is necessary) is the slave program prevalent in humanity.

Being a (self-proclaimed) leisurist, I have a certain fondness for the Culture and Peter F. Hamilton's Edenist culture.

State,

Yes, but conflict does not have to be warfare and cynical pessimism about the future. Star Trek: The Next Generation, had over a hundred episodes of facinating and thought-proviking, and often times very visionary and optimistic settings, with plenty of 'conflict' to make a good story. The only exception was some of Borg, and some of the machinations of other species. All the while, the world created by this star trek in particular was far better than the one we have now.

And yes, good books like thos by Iain Banks, and Norman Spinrad have loads of conflict, or more accurately plot tension to make them compelling read.

Some of Star Trek was okay....a lot of it catered to those who didn't read really adult-like fiction. For example, the episode where doctor Crusher falls for a dax thingy and then can't deal with the new {female} host. I mean, catch up people! Star Trek wasn't really visionary, it just appeared so to those who didn't know better.

Regarding pessimism about the future, now some members of the wealth elite -- T. Boone Pickens, Matthew Simmons, Jim Rogers, Richard Rainwater and others -- have sided with the Peak Oil Cassandras. When the people with a vested interest in maintaining the prospect of boundless growth have to acknowledge that we can't make more of, or find practical substitutes for, petroleum, then that reframes the discussion of what becomes doable in the future.

If any of these chuckleheads (including the arabs) had any real smarts - let alone wanted to insure the longevity of the 'tribe' - they would've invested in electric cars and shit like that over a hundred years ago. ...and where would we be, now?

Hey there Jeff and Future Hi friends - glad to see forum is back up and all is well here.

Been busy doing Mom stuff and haven't visited for a while.

I would like to respectfully disagree with your premise "to a point". There is still good sci fiction out there. But it has kind of morphed with the fantasy market, which is ok because I enjoy both venues.

Here is a link to an author that I love reading
http://www.tadwilliams.com/volume1.html
But he is one that is hard to pen down as what venue he's really in. And this story could be taken right off some of the internet's most famous conspiracy sites. And if you start to think about it long enough, it scares you to death. Using children to accomplish "their plan".

And myself being a long term hard core sci fiction fan (I absorbed 50s scifi late at night hiding under my covers with my secret flashlight).

Nothing of today's writing will ever come close.

Ever think that there might have been a reason for this?

I often wonder. Did these guys/girls predict our current future, cause it to happen in some way, were they time travelers. Or were they all members of some strange secret brotherhood who with magick and alchemy sent this "meme" of visions out to the mass consciousness who dreamed the dreams and made them manifest into reality?

Another problem is mass commercialism, anybody who remembers the 60s knows that what happened to the peace, love, freedom movement, knows that corporate entities realized the $$$ in it, and it became mainstream bubble gum.

And if you are into conspiracies, maybe that's what's still happening now.

Sorry to be so talky

Hope all is good, peace, love, light and good dreams to all

Sorry egad - I meant Paul, "Jeff" is my boss,

must've been a freudian slip or something!

I think there's always going to be a place and a need for dystopian futurism. Orwell's 1984 remains a powerful cautionary tale that every generation should be exposed to. That being said, I do find that a lot of contemporary scifi fails to excite my imagination. Particularly, the current obsession with posthumanist/postbiological singularity themes in scifi seem to preclude any kind of human future at all! There's this postmodernist sense is a lot of scifi now that any kind of ethical considerations will be kind of irrelevant, and that the singularity/AI ascendancy is just an inevitability. I find this a little depressing.