| Home Forums Library Media Gallery Glossary Links |

I am a product of the West. Like most American's, I grew up in the public education system, and in a technologically savvy and saturated "MTV" culture. As a college student I went straight to the core of a Western scientific education by getting a degree in physics with two minors in philosophy and psychology. My primary interests at the time were astrophysics, cosmology, quantum physics and the nature of consciousness. I was determined to work at NASA and /or go into space one day. I loved science then and still do now.
When I was a freshman I postulated to one of my professors, that the language of computers (i.e. information) was far better suited describing the universe than current physical constructs. I thought I'd made a compelling and convincing case. He laughed me out of his office. Today, more than 20 years later, Seth Lloyd is making the rounds with the same idea. As he mentions in his wonderful book, Programming the Universe. He credits his recent acceptance and success to the widespread use of computer technology. Apparently, timing is everything.
In other words, acceptance of once radical ideas among scientists often hinges on the cultural, or in this case technological mileu in which they exist. As much as science prides itself on being objective, the actual science done everyday by real scientists is all too human. So is there really such a thing as truly objective science? As RAW once said, it's not really 'science' we're doing but neuro-science (i.e. science as a product of neurology).
According to Seth Lloyd the entire universe is a giant quantum computer. This is an elegant concept and it appeals to me for many reasons. I love computers and the metaphors they empower us with. But are computer metaphors the best way to look at things, or more accurately the most elegant way so far?
Looking at computers as metaphor, where did computer technology come from that gave these new more powerful ideas? Obviously it emerged out of ongoing historical technological trends. However, all of this progress is the result of scientific minds working on things. Whose minds were they, and what was inspiring them to work on the things they did? I think this is the more important question. When you examine the historical roots of the PC revolution you'll find that things like PC's and the World Wide Web came from a very particular group of people. As pointed out in What the Dormouse Said: How the 60s Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer, it was the insights gained from higher states of consciousness, specifically those unique to LSD, that gave rise to the PC revolution. As many people who have taken LSD, you experience your brain has a large set of programs, that you in turn can program, and better still, metaprogram "who" and "what" you want to become. Please read our online book by John Lilly, Programming and Metaprogramming the Human Biocomputer, for a pioneering work in this area. It's also no secret that the 60's is often equated with a turn to Eastern mysticism for guidance. There's was good reason for this embrace, as many very intelligent people felt current Western ideas on the nature of reality were woefully incomplete in describing, let alone assisting in integrating these sometimes powerful and overwhelming transpersonal experiences.
When I was 17 I experienced a profound and spontaneous (non drug) shift in consciousness myself. It lasted all of about 10 seconds. At the time I had no knowledge of eastern thought. I made every attempt to recapture the experience. Having read Gödel, Escher, Bach my sophomore year of high school, I often resorted to using Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem as a launching pad into understanding this transcendent state of consciousness. One night while trying, in a rather ridiculous and humorous way, to describe all of this to one my friends, I somehow "tricked" my brain back into this state. For the next hour I laughed my ass off at the cosmic joke of it all. I've tried unsuccessfully many times since to explain this state.
I believe my failure to adequate explain this state is rooted in our language and way of looking at the world, which itself is rooted in the Greek ideas of atomism, reductionism and materialism. This way of perceiving and understanding the universe eventually became what we now call science and forms the bedrock of Western philosophy. Barring the recent emergence of Eastern thought into this dialog, the only other alternative explanation of the universe are the beliefs of religious extremism of various stripes. (be it Christian, Islam or New Age). Scientists, being all too human that they are, seeing the believers at the gates, understandably defend their turf with as much zeal. However, this citadel of science as RAW liked to call it, similar to the Catholic Inquisition before it, believes, just like the religious extremism they oppose, that they, and they alone, have a monopoly on all knowledge. If it can't be objectively verified scientifically, then it doesn't really exist. Yet, ironically science has *created* just as many ephemeral concepts as any religion. Energyfor example is a fantastic and highly useful and utilitarian concept, but that's all it really is. The difference in this case, is western concepts like energy have "real-world" objectively verified effects. Understanding these effects and knowing how to predict and utilize them has tremendous power as evidenced by our current technological civilization.
Often times you'll hear scientists using Occams Razor as a way of defending their beliefs. Yet, when comparing Newton and Einstein’s view of gravity, whose is simpler? Obviously, Occams Razor is not as sharp as they'd like you to think. What does this tell us about science? As many have pointed out, "look how much progress and good has come from science!". Although many would have good reason to argue with some of that, I of all people agree with them. This is not about questioning what science is able to do, but about what it is not able to do. Science has yet to explain consciousness in any meaningful and satisfactory way. I believe the reason for this is the very nature of reality and consciousness itself. Although scientists have yet to admit the truth of this fundamental problem, Nasrudin, the famous Sufi Mystic understood it perfectly.
Nasrudin was rushing about town on his donkey, riding too and fro and in some desperation clearly looking for something he had lost. All of the towns people, who adored the wise Nasrudin, and wanting to help him in some way, asked if they could help, "Nasrudin, what are you looking for, maybe we can help you find it?". As he continued to ride around on his donkey he said, "I’m looking for my donkey, have you seen it?".
I've tried many times myself to explain this "eastern" concept of the self and nature of consciousness with little success. Objectivists insists that reality still exists when we are not there looking at it. But just what kind of reality is there when there is no observer? Everything that we know, everything that we have ever experienced are constructs of our mind. Can you dear reader think of anything that is not in your mind right now??
We travel to the moon, see clouds, you name it. But all of these things are constructs in our minds. What in actuality is "out there"? We might say there are things like electrical fields, waveforms, light, energy, dense matter, etc. But all of these are in turn constructs of human minds coming to grips in their minds with what they are perceiving. And why do we perceive what we do? Even with the best instruments we have expanding our perceptual field, are still constructs of human minds. The embodied experience of even being human at all and making things with our hands is a construct of consciousness.
Consciousness is everywhere and in everything. Everything is consciousness. And as much as we might want to objectify so-called "reality", all of reality is a construct of the human mind. Of course, then savvy thinkers will point out that there are commonalities between human minds. There is scientific and repeatable consensus. This might be true until we realize that so far everything we have called a law or physics turns out to be mutable. In other words the more WE examine things the more they change. The more we examine so-called hard-core "limits" we realize there are loopholes. Just to be clear I'm not saying nothing is real. No, all of this stuff is as real as the next. Obvious so-called "reality" is not a noun, but a verb. When you examine the present moment (i.e. reality) you realize everything is changing. There is no permanence of any kind. The conscious experience of realizing the impermanence of reality (i.e. maya or illusion) is part of the process of how the Buddha achieved enlightenment. Buddhists use words like Nirvana and Dharmakaya, describing this state as timeless, permanent, devoid of characteristics and free from duality.
Two of my favorite thinkers who have succeeding in explaining it better than I do are Peter Russell and Amit Goswami. Peter Russell's Reality and Consciousness: Turning the Superparadigm Inside Out does a good job of showing how the problem of consciousness is intrinsically unsolvable with objective science. Like a dog chasing its own tail, or Gödel's proving that math will never come full circle, or Von Neumann's Catostrophe of the infinite regress of studying the thing that is doing the studying (consciousness) will never be complete. And before the materialists trash me to pieces, I am not saying we can't study the nature of consciousness. Of course we can! We can tweak neurotransmitters, probe brain chemistry, augment, analyze and dissect brain structures and come to a much fuller understanding of how the human mind works, solves problems and perceives problems. All of these things are worth of objective scientific study. These though are all problems are within the purview of the Easy Problem of Consciousness. Actually understanding why there is a conscious experience in the first place is an entirely different beast.
This is where Eastern philosophies take an entirely different approach. They already understand that consciousness is the primary nature of reality. Amit Goswami's monistic idealism version of quantum mechanics is completely refreshing in this regard. Goswami has simply restated quantum mechanics with the supposition that consciousness is the primary component of reality rather than matter. And why not? It seems completely arbitrary that we should choose "out there" using the Greek ideas of atomism and reductionism as the one true way of knowing truth, rather than "in here". I think that in the end is the primary difference between East and West. West places the primacy of outer experience as absolute, and the East tends to favor inner experience as more true. But as Buddha said even this duality is transcended when one achieves Nirvana. There is no "out there" or "in here", no object or subject, objective or subjective, just transjective - the experience of the oneness of all things.
good post, im a big supporter of Amit Goswami and his monistic idealism. his book 'the self-aware universe' is a fantastic read about monistic idealism and the nature of consciousness.
Posted by: sb at July 1, 2006 10:04 PMI say--yet again--Saul-Paul Sirag's stuff is the key to bridging the "consciousness" crowd and the "physicalist" crowd!!
Love to you, Paul, dear host and COLLEAGUE--let's kick some butt with our project(s)...
Posted by: MCP2012 at July 3, 2006 12:30 PMHi Mark,
Do you have citations or a url's for Sirag's work in this area?
In any respect I believe Goswami's monistic idealism solves it for me (i.e consciousness and materialism). My whole point of this debate is that consciousness (the hard problem) is inherently BEYOND objective scientific inquiry. And that is what is so hard for the scientific materialist mindset to accept.
Any 'science' describing said 'consciousness' will itself be created by consciousness. What theory then can we use to describe the consciousness that came up with that explanation of consciousness? Consciousness describing itself describing itself, etc. It's an infinite regress - a Von Neuman Catastrophe. To me a perfect example of Godel's Incompleteness Thereom which states that any logical theory will always be incomplete, because it will require a new meta-logical system to validate it, and so on.
Since consciousness is the very 'it' of 'us' talking about all of this, regardless of whether we simpy saw it or validated it using tons of scientific experiments, is still just another vast experience of consciousness perceiving the world. How then could we ever possibly short-circuit this infinite regress and come up with a complete theory?
Any new theory that claims to have the newest and most complete theory of consciousness looks to me as just one more (NASCAR lap) of the dog chasing its own tail.
The more appropriate and fun question would be, "Just how far down the rabbit hole do we want to go?"
I believe it's down the rabbit hole of consciousness that we'll find the answers we seek. An infinite regress/bootstrap ever upwards towards 'god'. From what glimpses I've had of Nirvana it appears to short-circuit the infinite regress. But then Franklin Merrill Wolf talks about a further state higher than Nirvana, he calls High Indifference. Buddha said that when one achieves Nirvana, there is no death and rebirth, but there is no eternal soul either. However, this state of High Indifference as descibed by Wolff and John Lilly is way beyond buddhist nirvana, where consciousness is all there is (i.e there is a cosmic soul afterall).
Clearly though, consciousness is where it's at.
Posted by: Paul at July 3, 2006 12:35 PM"...I am not saying we can't study the nature of consciousness. Of course we can! We can tweak neurotransmitters, probe brain chemistry, augment, analyze and dissect brain structures and come to a much fuller understanding of how the human mind works, solves problems and perceives problems..."
And where does this probing, analyzin and dissecting happen?
In our consciousness.
And where does 'our consciousness' happen...?!
.
..
...
PLOP - here and now it is!
Unheard - it hears
Unsmelled - it smells
Unseen - it sees
Unfelt - it feels
Consciousness performs its miracles in wondrous and mysterious ways... :-)
Posted by: ultrafeel.tv at July 5, 2006 12:16 PMVERY well-said, Paul. As for stuff on Saul-Paul Sirag, as well as Jack Sarfatti, one need only google or dogpile 'Saul-Paul Sirag' and all sorts of goodie will come-up. Here is just a smattering: www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/saul.html
http://www.thinking-allowed.com/1ssirag.html (this second one is, as I'm sure you'll recognize, Paul, as will other FutureHi associates, a link to Jeff Mishlove's wonderful Thinking Allowed site) And here's an interview with Saul-Paul conducted by Jeff Mishlove, and published in his anthology, *Thinking Allowed* (just love that word-play title, don't you?) http://www.intuition.org/txt/sirag.htm And here's Jeff musing whether Saul-Paul might be Isaac Newton reincarnated: http://jeff.zaadz.com/blog/tags/saul-paul+sirag And for Saul-Paul's take on G. Spencer Brown's *Laws of Form*, see http://www.stardrive.org/Sirag/
But, Paul, don't get me wrong. I think Amit Goswami's stuff is superb. See also Michael Talbot's classic, **Mysticism & the New Physics** (Arkana).
Give me a call when you & family get settled-in. If need be I'll call you back on "my dime."
Got other chores to do for now...
Ciao...
Posted by: MCP2012 at July 6, 2006 04:31 PMinteresting, and oddly harmonic with the harmonics post a few back. I did my grad work in inorganic chemistry before being squirrelled into the real world for some very unsatisfying attempts at real work. I morph and folded a few times and find myself understanding the chemistry of water in terms of sacred geometries and the idea that sentience as an entity lies in individual oxygen molecules that become free to move in the aqueous state. In fact AQ58 is a company i am forming to do research into flowforms of water and inorganic chemistry, and other energy sources than fossil fuels.
as you refer to you education career and where you moved on to Paul, i noticed a striking parellel. Some of the concepts i understood as a grad student 25 years ago are just now coming out in the scientific literature as new and novel. The claims show a complete ignorance of past work, or rather the quest for rediscovery of rediscovery that goes on because of the patent system and the need to profit from every intellectual pretention one can come up with.
if i had the time i had a year ago, i would dive into these theories that you and mark discuss, but i am currently redirecting my mission to teach science as science instead of applied engineering with marketing spin. I hope to offer a few pilot course this year, designed at a seventh grade interest level and mentor the 7th graders that wish to fast track to a science career by focusing on measurement. If we use a few high quality instructors who can listen and discuss concepts in modern youth language, then the youth will translate paradigm change to the lemmings as the grow. the key is fostering learning about interest and having adult role model that may not understand the content, but can be encouraging and supportive. Concepts of love, peace and harmony act as scaffolding while the search for wisdom through truth, with compassion for those that must change (though they will not admit that anything changes, and the more things change, the more they stay the same).
sometimes i tend to ramble, but i can use people that know what they know and are comfortable to offer courses on-line that have a physically real component somewhere in nature. Another key is to focus on measurement and measurement equipment, used to support inquiry in the scientific process. How much do you trust the measurement device and can you reproduce the effect? But, i know that not all effects have to be reproducible to be real, and that inquiry comes from a point of not knowing, not the assumption that we can know and explain everything. I think you guys know that too, so i offer an exchange, time for time - thoughts for thoughts.
i am working on an edjugame concept that should get people excited, if they have interest. It does seem though that the interest level and the ability to apply self to attain any goal has been slumbered out of most people. But the deep conversations at rigorous intuition lead me to believe there are enough of us to be the change we wish to see. (boy that Ghandi could think)
Vemora Spardu
Posted by: dr. lenny at July 13, 2006 05:11 AM