Hofstader said he asked many of his friends, "highly informed intellectual people," and their reactions to Singularity were from it's "nutty" to "scary" to 'I don’t know." It could be reasonable or probable, but none of the people he queried had read the book. "You get the feeling the scientific world not taking this seriously. I don’t see serious discussions among physicists when they get together, and most are skeptical," he said.

Hofstader proclaimed that he was less skeptical than those he discussed the topic with, but said that the ideas said in book marred by blurring with too much science fiction, calling it "wild beyond any speculation I am willing to accept."

Hofstader illustrated his points with some of his own cartoons.

Source.

Posted by: Damian at May 17, 2006 05:16 PM

Unless someone steps up and starts posting more original content this site should no longer be considered a running commentary. Instead, the home page should go directly to the archives, which, unlike the updates section, actually does have some thought provoking material.

Posted by: Wii at May 17, 2006 07:29 PM

an interesting twist on the Kurtzweil take, for sure. i wander how Ramona feels about the way her creator's ideals get treated;)
thanx for the links, tons of reading material.

just a funny hypothesis here, since we're in wild speculative mode:
what if this "machine" being talked about is.... well man itself?
as in, we're self and co-creators of the machine known as "man".

?
:)

Posted by: fuzz at May 18, 2006 02:25 AM

"With his new book, The Singularity Is Near, Ray Kurzweil has taken all the strands of the singularity meme circulating in the last decades and has united them into a single tome which he has nailed on our front door. I suspect this will be one of the most cited books of the decade. Like Paul Ehrlich's upsetting 1972 book Population Bomb, fan or foe, it's the wave at the epicenter you have to start with."

To be honest, with the subject matter in mind, if his book is not the most cited book in human history, he has failed totally and completely. But not if his aims were media recognition, fame and wealth.

Wait untill you die before releasing a masterpeice (or otherwise), and then no one can lay a finger upon your motivations, nor your commitment. If the singularity is going to occur before then, then I am amazed someone of his philosophical awareness, composure and vision is not spending all that time online or elsewhere.

A nice little mathematical observation, exponential acceleration, but the one who plugs in numbers and thinks that is how it will work in reality is the dumbest fool. We all know this. ( see previously mentioned DNA logarithms, climate models, and experiances of real life to name a few, and you are plotting the future of human beings developing computational hardware and software, amongst other techs? Where are the works combining this 'craze' with economic/socio-political maps of the coming 6+ years? This surely is where the truest predictions and plans can be found and laid. ((MCP2012 if you provide sources, for which I am grateful, that are not online sources I am going to struggle to be able to get ahold of them.))

As with all 'views', the Fors and the Againsts will already be deeply entrenched, with the battle fought hardcore and vitriolic.

I have a question. Do people believe this is likely to happen? Or is this the final arguement put forward in the absolution of all responsibility beyond ones self (ones party crowd/'tribe')?

People here seem adverse to the 'scientific method' logic, rationality. Yet here you are waiting for computer scientists to propel you into Godhood.

The irony of ironies.

'Our technology will make us God, and soon', and this is all the words you need to utter when questioned about your actions, your integrity, your morality, your day to day lifestyle.

I love it. This site gives me so much to burn upon. Confirms my questions and deductions, time and time again.

There are a minute few who would stare upon reality as it exists now, aware of all possibility, and make this the realm of their desire for change.

It is almost a cry, an anguished yelp, to deny everything in favour for the slimmest of possibilities. Should success come its way, we can do little, but be swept away by it. But even with failure being so prominent and powerful an outcome, you cannot, you dare not, pull your eyes away.

You have ran out of places to go, and things you can do, except flee into the arms of a God.

Tragic, but not least for those people under the control of whatever regime/group/individual that does persue this very idea right to the very end, long after Democracy has become more furiously mocked as an ideaology than communism. (hoho watch me predict the future, am I not good?)

I agree with Fuzz, thank you for the wealth of links on this topic, however they do little more than point to me that this is indeed little more than a techno-religious 'belief', that is going to take an exceptionall amount of mental effort, or a few decades, to alter and reintegrate into the realistic march of our species, technology and time.

I also agree with Wii's view that it is time for more original and inspiring works to be displayed here. If the singularity occurs, there is little we can do to plan for it, so says most of the articles on this site, therefore we right here should be directing our gaze towards a possible singularity less future, covering all the bases so to speak, and should be directing our thoughts and actions towards creating a stronger, more equal and just, less violent and greedy and terrifying/lonely/meaningless future for more and more if not all people. And please, dont tell me you are crafting this future by lying on the beach, or driving consideratly to work and smiling at all your workmates.

Personally I would like to see (more) discussions/articles etc. on the potential and possiblity of the internet in the coming 20-50 years for the distribtion of ideas, creation of new communities and entire ideaological structures, the persuit of ethical and philosophically high held ideals, and its potential to radically reshape the entire workbench upon which all political and social maps are drawn. (the last post regarding the internet looked as if it was about to turn into a really good discussion, more of that please.)

I would like to see articles discussions on the integration and mobilisation of the various regions of the world, and the various motivations behind extreme actions, towards single, unilateral, communal, species wide undertakings, events, projects and goals and aims.

I would like to see (more) articles on space tech, the opening up of the resource wealth of our solar system and beyond, coupled to social pressures and the need for expansion and exploration for their aleviation.

You can stand and gaze at the horizon of the majestic, infinate and awsome forever, but that wont change the fact that the real issues, the real work, the reality is now and the near future.

Lets see something beyond 'The Singularity' or 'who cares, leave it upto cranks, wackos, megalomaniacs, and have fun'.

Make no mistake that if its not a free, fair and democratic/equal group/method/system that persues these issues forever, then it is going to be something otherwise that persues these ideas and succeeds off them. That is how important finding answers or new pathways as an open, free, equal, democratic species will be, at some point in the future, if not all.

Before I end I want to disagree whole heartedly with this statement.
"Instead, the home page should go directly to the archives, which, unlike the updates section, actually does have some thought provoking material."
If the discussion on the front page is not thought provoking enough for you, then start provoking thoughts. Some of us that comment here do attempt vigourously to add thought provoking content, however much we may fail. If you are going to spend the time to comment, then have the decency to try to fire up someones brain while you are here.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 18, 2006 04:43 AM

Pressed for time; will write more soon:

EventHorizon (and everyone else, too, for that matter): The books, articles and websites/pages I've bibilographed over the last 2 yrs here should be available EITHER online and/OR thru one's library (if only, if necessary, thru interlibrary loan).

And you're right: The FUTURE is MADE, not simply "run into". WE--all of us--must be active participants over the next, say, 30 yrs. We really all need to become Renaissance Men & Women, and to loudly proclaim what we think OUGHT to be done, OUGHT to transpire...

Gotta go (being kicked-off...)

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 18, 2006 02:16 PM

I'm back...

EventHorizon (Gail): E-mail me a same address as listed, except make it Y a h o o instead of hotmail.

In General: What can one do?

1. Study economics. Hillsdale College in Michigan has inexpensive books on economics, and they'll send 'em out free (or at least cheap) for those who can't afford the regular price (or at least they used to do this--I would imagine they still do...) Google 'em and contact 'em... A good basic intro to economics is Tom Sowell's *Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy*(Revised)(Basic Books, 2004), and James Gwartney, Richard L. Stroup, and Dwight R. Lee, *COMMON SENSE ECONOMICS: What Everyone Should Know About Wealth and Prosperity* (St. Martin's Press, 2005, hardcover). And Tom Sowell's classic treatise, *KNOWLEDGE AND DECISIONS* (Basic Books, 1994,Pb) is probably the best more in-depth intro to economic thinking that a layperson can delve-into. EventHorizon, these should be obtainable either inexpensively thru Amazon or Laissez-Faire Books (http://www.lfb.com), and/or thru inter-library loan.

2. Get involved in advocacy and word-spreading. Senescence (take my 48-yr-old word for it! [wink]) is DRAG! But vigorous investigation/promotion of Aubrey de Grey's SENS program will lead to the virtual elimination of senescence withing 15 yrs (+/- 5) if we'll merely give it a shot. SENS stands for Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence. See the website http://www.sens.org/ . Is it possible to stop and even *reverse* senescence--even prior to the advent of nanobots, etc.? Aubrey de Grey makes an excellent case for that prospect. But it may take an Apollo-like project to get it off the ground. But first we need to get the public both aware and interested. Write your newspaper(s), write your Congress- or Parliment-critters. Let 'em know that you're tired of the "same ol', same ol'" bullshit-as-usual ("Life sucks & then ya die..."). If there're gonna be taxes, let's funnel 'em into a systematic SENS program. UK & USA can & should lead the way...so let's get the Congress- and Parliment(s)-Critters to pull their heads out their collective ass (or arse, if you prefer [wink]) and fund SENS (hell, it should only take a few tens or at most 1 or 2 hundreds on Millions of $$--we spend more than that PER FUCKING DAY in I-fucking-RAQ...!!!!...arrrgh...!!)

3. Start trying to wake the public (and Congress- and Parliment-critters) to the fact that (putting on my Paul Revere tri-corn hat...) "The ROBOTS are coming, the ROBOTS are coming...!!!" Robots and cybernated systems will be either cybernating or **obviating** almost all jobs over the next 20-30 yrs (but will commence doing so--BIG TIME--within the next **5-10** yrs). What to do? Is there a classical-liberal, market-system compatible/integrable institution/protocol to put in-place to make sure that people have sufficient income to live at least decently if not, indeed, affluently? Yep--interestingly enough--there sure is: See James Albus's proposal(s) at http://www.jamesalbus.org. Forget the need for his notion of taxing income, however. And excise tax on consumption would serve better.

4. Speaking of excise taxes: See http://www.LostHorizons.com, and get the book *Cracking the Code: The Fascinating Truth about Taxation in America*. This is a scandal--and outrage--that will soon dwarf "Watergate".

5. And we probably need AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) to be our helpmate. Indeed, greater-than-human AGI is actually the very essence of the Singularity. We are, after all, little more than Naked Apes. But if we can perfect AGI, we have a good chance of solving the problems that EventHorizon (quite reasonably, of course) fusses-&-fumes over. Write the newspaper(s) and the Congress- and Parliment-critters. Let the public know what's at stake (I mean: C'mon...do we really want Dubya & Tony & Vlad running things much longer...gimme a fucking break...). AGI, combined with robotics, will usher in a world of cybernated leisure for all--see Jim "Cyber" Lewis, http://www.cyberlewis.com/graphic/posthuman/topia/Robotopia.htm . But we could also have a world like the movie *THX-1138* and/or *Brazil* (and/or Rollerball [the original, not the inferior remake])--IF we're not careful. Robots eliminating all human labor is fine--as long as one derive income from the robots!!

6. WE WANT NANOTECH. And we want it NOW! Nanotech (by which I mean full-fledged "Drexlerian" molecular manufacturing via assemblers) will solve virtually all humankind's traditional problems. If it is instantiated/instituted properly. But if not...then we're screwed, blew'd and tattoo'd!! There are 4 private commercial concerns racing to perfect the first crude assembler (one of 'em in my own backyard, so to speak). Are we talkin' 5 yrs or 20? Beats me, but I'll bet it's sooner than 20!! How to handle robots and nanotech--again check-out James Albus' stuff.

Gotta go for now...

Don't fret too much, kids--- But DO get mad, and agitated, and advocate-active---we'll make it!! Even if I don't make it, the vast majority of those now under 40-yrs-old will...

Love always...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 18, 2006 03:05 PM

WE WANT NANOTECH! AND WE WANT IT NOW!

I love that ... ;D
Thanks for being an endless source of information and wisdom, MCP, as always ....

Namaste!

Posted by: Upwinger at May 18, 2006 09:45 PM

MCP2012 You say
"But if we can perfect AGI, we have a good chance of solving the problems that EventHorizon (quite reasonably, of course) fusses-&-fumes over."
"And we want it NOW! Nanotech (by which I mean full-fledged "Drexlerian" molecular manufacturing via assemblers) will solve virtually all humankind's traditional problems."

But what about original, out-of-the-box, head on palms and net in front of you thinking? The way I see it the world as a whole is moving towards being a mass of fundamentally similar entities, whos differences in natural resources and culture among some other aspects determine with which group they are going to 'fit-in' with.

There wont be a whole lot radically different between nations, and much of their fundamental machinery of government, growth, and operation is going to be the same. Then its just petty differences (religion and colour, sigh), mistakes, removable/changeable but static dictators/collapsed states/civil wars and a whole lot of aggressive operation by the wealthy and desiring that gives us our political map of today.

Unless massive, and epoch defining changes to government and international relations, operations, systems and differences are persued vigourously, whole heartedly and unanimously, then nanotechnology is going to erupt into a world that is growing ever more polarised, violent, and sectarian.

Take Iraq for example. I dont like to comment much on the war, but the way I see things is that the only possible process for change, stability, and peace in the LONG TERM is the dedicated and systematic construction of an entire new nation from the ground up, school, hospitals, water supply, electricity, jobs etc. etc. If that is not an option then the only other option is to GET OUT. War and military presence is going to do NOTHING more in the long run than make this whole situation worse.

I wont comment on the right or wrong of the decision, but the action taking was short sighted, fool hardy and shows that absolutely and completley our leaders have no idea how to solve the problems that face us. Only meet them with force.

I know it wasnt my figurehead buildings that got taken out in a symbol of terror and death and hatred, but the best thing the Americans and its allies could do for the world right now is stand defiant in the face of terrorism, death, murder, and devote its attentions and power and wealth to selflessly constructing infrastructure around the world where there is none.

This is where you win that war, this is how we have to fight, fight our urge for revenge and to become distracted, focus our heroic war efforts on bringing long lasting stability of ANY kind beyond what exists to the poorest and worst regions of this planet.

Then people will thanks us, instead of viewing us as some kind of pacified babbling circus living off of the fat and lies spun and siphoned by our military, economic and political machinery, then we will have done all that was humanly possible in todays world, then we can start uniting our common goals, dreams, hopes and desires, and face the challenges and changes of the near-medium term with hope and a real sense of ability and security and stability and calmness.

I understand in some ways nanotech will change the world, but unless mankind does become omnipotent, we will still be human, so things in other respects wont really change all that much.

As it is if we dont put some real creative effort into planning our path into the future, I dont see us ending up anywhere particularly 'better'.

This isnt a negative rant, its a call to everyone to realise that even with this ultra techs in view, the path we are heading isnt that great all things considered, and that the time is RIPE to judo/aikido flip battered and failing institutions, ideas, and political comfort zones into dynamism, originality, solid useful delivering systems institutions and organisations.

Take for example some of the ideals behind the UN, then look to the various fragmented AID agencies, and then take a look at the roots of some of the major problems in the world today.

It doesnt take a genius to work out that there exists the will, desire, need and space for a single international institution that could be devoted entireally to the things most individual nations shy away from. Create an organisation, free it from unfair, undemocratic control (no vetos or 'senior' members), set it the task of channeling aid into construction of infrastructure around the world, in a deeply thought out, ever changing, completely see through international plan.

Take for example the closing statement in that article MCP posted, that basiclly said sweatshops are good for the people who find work, and that capitalism will slowly bring those nations up in quality of life.

It seems to me that there is room for an agency that can pay to offer incentives for business and jobs, then watch the economy as it forms and grows, institute and govern taxation and apply that taxation soley to specific areas, such as clean drinking water across the nation, or schools, or more business. At the same time they could assist in the formation and development of governments. Once their is a firm basis that can promote sustainable growth, then that job is done.

We should develop this system to the best of human ability and efficiency, rather than leave it up to non profit volunteer aid agencies, or the US/Allies militaries to try instead.

The West/World in general has enough steam in it to maintain the current status quo for a good 200+ years, not including wildly unforseeable events, so we should just leave these dudes to churn along and ignore their petty squabbling and woefully crap decision making, and focus entireally on things that dont exist, dont work, are not being thought about, and see what can be made. If the singularity comes along, great. If nanotech solves all the worlds issues, brilliant. But it honestly seems to me to be the cheap, quick fix hope for a better future, and we should be struggling mightilly to come up with alternative ways of thinking, of doing things, actuall non-technological/scientific answers to world concerns.

And I cannot find anywhere where this seems to be occuring at all, not at a serious, non revolutionary/destructive, real progress level.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 19, 2006 03:49 AM

Upwinger & EventHorizon: As always, I'm very deeply HONORED by your comments-on-my-comments.

Gail (EventHorizon): Your points are well-taken, but it seems to me as though we are (albeit perhaps only somewhat, not necessarily drasticly or insurmountably)**talking past one another**. While I share your concerns, I'm dubious of forming a viable transnational (or "World") government, at least for the foreseeable future. Washington (George, that is), Tommy Jefferson, Jimmy Madison, and the rest of the boys (and a few hell-cat, loving girls, too, btw) were all of the notion that (to paraphrase Washington or Jefferson, can't remember which for sure and don't have the exact quote-&-source handy...) GOVERNMENT is FORCE; it is not REASON, it is FORCE. Like FIRE, it is a dangerous SERVANT and a **terrible** MASTER. Point being that UNTIL WE CHANGE THE GLOBAL/WORLD **CULTURE** (i.e., the predominant MEMES) in terms of which the **functions** of law & legislation (and, as a subset, taxation) are embedded (and from which they derive their **legitimacy...**), any "World Government put in-place---to some extent, **even with** stringent fundamental/constiutional safeguards for both dispersing power and, in general, limiting/curbing it---would be highly likely to (1) NOT have full global-community consensus in terms of legitimacy, **but yet** (2) would, because of (*ex hypothesi*) having been "formally" "ratified" and "sanctioned" (etc., etc., yadda-yadda-yadda, *ad fuckin' nauseum*...) by a majority of the world's Legislative-Body-Critters, such a "World Government" would have superficial/nominal "authority" and "legitimacy" to do more-or-less ***whatever the hell it can fucking get away with*** (such, my dear beloved young colleague[s], is the very quintessent *nature* of "government" or "the State"--even if/when it is stringently constituionally-constrain, and all the more so to the extent that it is less-stringently-constrained.---I mean, look at my own beloved US of A---I guaran-damn-tee you that Tommy (J) and Jimmy (M) along with their founding colleagues, are rolling-&-puking in their graves (and, yes, I'm ever-so-slightly tearing-up a bit as write that...).

The U.S.A. is, preimenently, the ***country [or nation, if you will] of the Enlightenment***. Which doesn't necessarily mean that we have to tow a narrow libertarian line (though I personally have a tremendous respect and affection for Murray Rothbard, e.g., whom I had the honor & joy of knowing as a personal acquaintance while studying in NYC years ago)---but it DOES mean that we are the country of REASON. Now be assured, I say this not in rah-rah vanity or pride, but simply as a statement of fact. The U.S.A., and, importantly, the so-called AngloSphere in general [See James Bennett's slightly flawed, but nonetheless overall superb book, *The AngloSphere Challenge*, Rowman-Littlefield, 2005) has a World duty to be a cultural/intellectual LEADER. We of the AngloSphere MUST do what it takes to CHANGE THE WORLD'S **MIND** (as it were), that is, to change the predominant MEMES *vis-a-vis* the fundamental challenges facing all of humankind over the next 30-40 yrs. "Clash of Civilizations"? (Harrington's stuff is not to bad either...) Perhaps. Yet it's both more and less than that. What must--and, I'm confident, SHALL--emerge, via the InterNet and other forums [the electronic media, as Bucky forsaw in his magnificent book, *Critical Path*, and corresponding to the Leary/Wilson 6th circuit-surfing, btw...[wink]) is nothing less than--as you want and foresee the need-for, EH--a Global Mind Change, a Global Renaissance, a new & vibrant Global (Meta)Culture. It **has** to (or we're toast...). But to catalyze and facilitate such a Global Mind Change takes agitation and activism--on many different fronts and at many differenet levels.

What we want is for humankind, individually and collectively, to wake-up (think John Carpenter's movie *They Live* [one of my cult-faves (wink)]), to become AWARE of the current situation ("Awareness IS the transformation..." George Leonard, *The Transformation: A Guide to the Inevitable Changes in Humankind*, wonderful, but a bit dated, book...) to become AWARE of the ALTERNATIVES in terms of political paradigms and derivative legislative rules and propsals. People are lazy, and, to some extent, "sheeple", but the duty of INTELLIGENCE AGENTS is to awaken, educate, edify, agitate, goad, prod, google, tickle, etc., etc. We up against some heavy bullshit, admittedly, but there is such good stuff comin' down the pike (that the shitheads themselves, to be sure, want to benefit-from and participate-in) that we are daily gaining **leverage** to "tweak" things in the direction(s) they need to go...

You want energy-sanity, EH? Then spread the word about the GENI project. Don't want to age and become feeble, then rant-&-rave in favor of SENS. Want a cybernated world of leisure-&-ultra-abundance---then propagate that meme, and do so in a respectable, reasonable, implementable manner. Raise the notion of a labor-free world...how do we achieve it, how do we get there from here...**what instituional changes (if any) are needed**, and how is best to go about advocating and (eventually) implementing **THEM** etc., etc.

Butcha gotta know more-or-less what you're funking talking-about. Ya gotta know economic theory, politcial-economic theory, plus be well-informed about actual, existing alternatives and possibilties (in terms of tech and price-structure, and CULTURAL READINESS--I.E., IMMORATALIST MEMES INSTEAD OF STUPID "DEATHIST" IDIOCY, ETC. ET FUCKING CETERA.

THE REALLY, REALLY IS ABUNDANT CAUSE FOR HOPE AND INDEED OPTIMISM. But we have to change the Global Mind, the Global (Meta)MEME-complex. All the bullshit that (paraphrasing Drexler quoting Johnny Keynes) "ramify throughout the minds of humankind."

WRITE (e-mail or snail-mail) to the guys and gals who share part of all of your vision(s). Write in support of Drexler, and de Grey, etc. Write the Congress and Parliment Critters (yeah, they're narcissistic semi-psychopaths as often as not, but they KNOW the YOU have THE **VOTE** so they'll pay attention, and the more people that write 'em the better. Write "the *media*"--let *those* assholes (with sincere and deep apologies to all journalists who *aren't* assholes, whatever percentage that might turn-out to be...) know that you want the kind of stuff we're into and interested-in to be COVERED, and done-so respectfully, and non-"sensationally". Let's have Aubrey de Grey interviewed on TV. Hell, let's have Drexler interviewed on TV, for that matter! But it may be a few years premature for that. Let's do our best to spread the word. WHAT SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC INSTITUIONAL STRUCTURES (IP law, Kelsonian/Albusian type stuff, etc., etc.) DO WE NEED TO **CULTURALLY** START ("MOM-&-POP") BECOMING **AWARE-OF** AND **DISCUSSING** (ON THE INTERNET, AT THE DINNER-TABLE, WITH OUR GOLF- OR HANDBALL- OR TENNIS-BUDDIES??!!??

YOU SEE WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT? Yeah, thngs are to some extent fucked-up. We have religious-loonies-cum-murdering-assholes **organized** and loosed-upon the world. Sniping abortion-doctors. Flying jets into skyscrapers. Trying to instantiate a "New Caliphate" (which is the Islamo-fascist parallel, of course, to New Socialist Society...). Trying to instantiate New Christian Millenium, or a New World Order. Power-craving, power-drunk, alpha and quasi-alpha male baboon bullshit, playing itself out across the globe. Can we overcome all this authoritarian crap? Sure we can: It's the MEMES, stupid! (I'm not calling you, or any other colleague here, stupid, btw, EH--I'm just bouncing-off that old Clintonism of 10 years ago or so). It's the NORMS (Normative MEMES) that people are accustom to and acting on that have to be subtly (or not-so-subtly, perhaps) tweaked and changed. But this is happening daily via the internet and other electronic media. We have to change the NORMS, the PROTOCOLS, the MEMES that people are "muddling" ("through" or "around") with. And THAT'S HAPPENING. Yeah, it's slow, it's, as Bucky would say, rump-bumping, yeah, it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, meandering, but it's happening, and it's accelerating/spreading/diffusing GLOBALLY as I write and as YOU READ.

As Bucky said in *CRITICAL PATH* (another must-read, though now ever-so-slightly dated), it is coming--indeed, has **already come**--down to each and every indivdual---each and every mind, consciousness, intentionality---on the planet. The so-called 3rd world cries out for CHANGE--kick the warlords out (if you're gonna machete anyone, machete them...). Everywhere people long for FREEDOM, WEALTH, AFFLUENCE, LEISURE--LIBERTY!!

You speak of or allude to "paths", EH. Damn right, CRITICAL PATH. And there are myriad critical subpaths, or branches. But they're being tended-to. Sufficiently? Well, I don't know for sure--maybe not--indeed, probably not. As Bucky says (present-tense!, as he's no-doubt looking upon us some how with a twinkle)WHAT DO ***YOU*** SEE THAT **NEEDS DOING**. Advocacy, perhaps? GENI, perhaps? SENS, perhaps? Radical reform---well, OK, maybe, but WHAT? YOU TELL ME...I'LL BE HAPPY TO LISTEN. But it might behoove you, and Upwinger, and Chris/lvx23, and Paul, and Mr. Neutron to study-up a little more. No patronizing/condesension implied--I'm weak in a lot or areas m'self (be-fucking-lieve me!!). START YOUR OWN BLOG (I MAY SOON, BTW). It's FREE, it's doable! But propose and discuss meaningful stuff, don't just do Cassandra-esque handwringing and whining. And, NO, that was not meant as a jab at you EH, not at all. But at one's own blog--or even here on FutureHi, what is best to do is articulate solutions, or at least point us in the direction of appropriate memes, ideas, proposals, etc. But how do one differentiate and evaluate good from bad proposals, ideas, memes, etc.

Well, there are fundamental disciplines such as economics and political-economy (Public Choice theory, i.e.) as well as social-pschological dynamics, as well also as basic physical sci/tech capabilities-&-parameters. Basic economics applies to Og the Paleolith and Clarence the CroMagnon as much as to us contemporary blokes. Same for basic social-pychological dynamics (at least broadly) and certainly for basic sci/tech. These are fundamental/universal (planet-wide, anyway) So one needs a good grounding in these so that one can read and evaluate all the wheat (and separate-out all the chaff) that's "out there" on the good ol WWW.

1. GENI 2. SENS 3. Robo-tech 4. Nanotech. What do we realisticly need to do, need to help bring-about, for the 4 above things to have a smooth path for instantiation? It's a tougher question to answer than to ask, for sure. But at least it's a straightforward(-enough) question. SO...LET'S TRY OUR BEST TO GET OUR FREINDS & COLLEAGUES & COHORTS, ***AND*** CONGRESS- AND PARLIMENT-CRITTERS, TO GET WITH THE FUCKIGN "*UPWING*" PROGRAM, QUIT WALLOWING IN 19TH AND 20TH CENTURY MONKEY-BULLSHIT, AND GET ON WITH IT...

To be continued (I've gotta go do stuff...)...

Love you kids...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 19, 2006 02:10 PM

MCP George W fucking brain dead Bush went into Iraq not for my benefit, not for the Iraqis benefit, but for the twisted and visionless benefit of YOUR NATION AND FUTURE.

People are dying daily because some people think it will bring YOUR nation a better future.

Now it doesnt matter what is said, what is made of his actions, either he wants to be hated, or he actually believes this will provide a better future for your nation. Your Government puts your wealth and happiness ahead of everytihng and everyone else, except their own immediate circles.

I'm sure, all things said and done, he couldnt actually give a fuck whether or not it benefits anyone else. If this is how it must be, get rid of nations asap.

Now you may think you can overcome and alter the memes of the entire global population in a short enough period of time to harnass the emergance of various techs so that they are used for the benefit of mankind.

Its not going to happen. What IS going to happen on the other hand is existant memes get manipulated, abused, and used for agenda.

The rapid change of global points of view towards whatever kind of transcendant utopianesque future you have half an eye on, is the same kind of view points every philosopher has hoped and dreamed of since they started actually thinking about issues, since they seperated themselves from the *ruling classes* for peace to think, rather than having to work on them with no time to actually engage the brain. And the people, the masses, never change that quickly, not even with the internet, they will never accept radically new *memes* or ideas on the kind of scale you are advocating. Hell we have to play out this planets last remaining large scale religious war/sectarian fiasco first, for fuck sake. I should know, I'm Scottish, sectarian violence is the livid scar that reminds each Scot of who we are and where we come from. Cut me and I'll bleed my colours more than you will bleed yours, and there you have it, the proof and my bullshit, but ill still bleed Saltire.

The world is NOT the USA, and as a nation the USA is not the centre of a new 'renaissance', I see nation with broken dreams and goals and aims, shattered hopes, torn hearts, wide eyed and wondering and struggling and trying hard to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it, and I say welcome to the god damn party. Even the last renaissance did little to change totally the political landscape of the world, we are still feeling those slow repercussions. And you can say what you like about the changes and revolutions going within the USA, because at best the rest of the world right now views the USA as having its head in its wallet and its eyes focused on its feelings.

The Upwing programme is going to go the way of EVERY OTHER MOTHERFUCKING PROGRAMME THAT HAS EVER EXISTED, It will be digested and torn apart and consumned, only to be dragged up again in 200 years or so once people FINALLY come to realise its merit, and all the will of the USA isnt going to matter a FUCK while people on large scales want to kill you.

As always, all that matters in the coming years is those subtle tweaks and changes to the WORKING SYSTEMS THAT YIELD POSITIVE RESULTS. I can sit here and prophecise the social/philosophical revolution of the coming decades in the USA, and watch it fall from where it is now and has been this last 50 years, simply because the rest of the world screws you hard while you crest the peak of current development and revolutionise without assistance nor mercy.

MCP I see where you are coming from, and all I am trying to say is that this rampant enthuism for trully revolutionary view points has to be tempered and applied to the mercilesly slow, as always self serving hulk of a beast that is human civilisation, and all the preaching in the world isnt going to make a blind bit of difference untill every last motherfucker on the face of this earth learns the god damned hard way. And then they die, and their kids grow up wanting sex drugs and rock and roll, or a place to worship whatever the hell deity they have been exposed to, and it begins again, or more truthfully never really ends.

You can embrace this/these points of views as earnestly and wholeheartedly as you like, but let me ask you a trully honest question, no matter how hard you try, how much of your heart and soul and being you throw behind this, is it going to occur from where we are now to the next 100 years?

Is it fuck. And even if there is some kind of megaglobal revolution, its going to destroy more than it creates (dont believe me? take a long slow look around), and we will settle down eventually to where we are now + 20 years, only it will take us 50 to 100 years to do it. Why do you think I dont rant about grabbing guns and overthrowing the government, like most 'empassioned youths' my age? Because I dont believe it will do a damn bit of good, thats why.

And MCP, in order for what I say to not be true, then something on the same mind/meme changing level to a species wide religious mass suicide is whats going to have to occur. And feelings of various types are far too strong for that too occur. By a mile.

So an international government is a thing of greed, self interest, prone to manipulation, and is a fairy tale. Well outside of ascending to Godhood its the best fucking hope this miserable collection of drones has in the coming few centuries, and a damn sight more realistic, for those of us excluded from the obvious immensity of american transcendant thought.

Even the furiously psychotic efforts of that nut Adolf only succeeded in hastening the onset of a power struggle between the USA and the USSR, the collapse of the British empire, and the establishment of the UN. That shit was still going to happen, and that is my point. The Japs would still have attacked Pearl Harbour.

I will preach the merits of techological eschatology, and lives free from control, but not without considering their implications, nor their relevancy, likelyhood, nor influence upon the world of human existance.

I may, and do, know fuck all when it comes to *important stuff* like money or science, but Iv known enough people and been a cold hearted prick long enough to know my own and others bullshit and truths.

People want certain things, most of them still cling to *memes* espoused 4000 years and more ago, most of them are greedy fucks when it comes to strangers, and maybe one out of a thousand has the balls, the guts, to give up the ease of a 'hardlife' for the wholehearted persuit of wholly new idealogies.

"It is easier to find men willing die, than to find those willing to endure hardship with patience" - Julius Caesar. Ironic and not relevant to you, but relevant to a whole host of seething numpties across the world.

The speed of spread of ideas does not correlate with their uptake and implimentation, but the worth and value and content of an idea does correlate to its likelyhood of eventual implimentation. IF you still hold out for whatever various eschatological escapes, then be my guest, but they are only an aspect, one whos relevance is no more than a yes or no when applied to every single issue of the day.

I am a naysayer, not only do I bank on no as I have nothing to lose if I am wrong, but I am envisiging and planning and thinking about that *alternative* difficult, now+20-50-100-1000 year future as we speak, and really, honestly, why the hell arnt you?

Peace, and respect, even if it seems otherwise.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 19, 2006 06:43 PM

Had a real-nice post all-set to post yesterday, but the library's system kicked me off before it would post...AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!! (Aarrr, maties...shiver me frickin' timbers...[wink]).

But the silver-lining is that, in the meantime, EventHorizon has since posted a (as usual, quite interesting and relevant) response, so I have more to work with...May have to post in short-bursts, however, or "installments"...

Yep, EventHorizon, Global-Civilizational memes change slowly (at least they tend to, *heretofore*), but they tend to keep-pace with the (tech-related) changes over the medium-run, at least in many (though, perhaps, not all) respects. That is, the automobile, machines-in-general (good ol'--but misguided--Ned Ludd notwithstanding), the telephone, TV, computers, etc., tend to be well-absorbed into society (at least so far that's been the case). What's tougher--and you're spot-on on this one, Kid-O--is politico-economic-institutional **change** (or even informed, non-ignorant, relevant DISCUSSION of possible **change[s]**). Such as, e.g., changes in Intellectual Property (and Property-in-general) rights to better-facilitate a broad and inclusive "cultural commons"--see Larry Lessig's superb books, *The Future of Ideas* and (its sequel) *Free Culture*. And on property (capital instrumentalities) **financing/acquisition** **rights, institutions & protocols**, again (for the umpteenth time--AARRGGHH!!) see the work of both Louis O. Kelso and, more recently, James Albus. I don't necessarily agree with every jot-&-tittle of Lessig's (or Kelso/Albus) stuff either, but at least he (and Kelso & Albus) is (are) a superb scholar(s) and raises vitally important issues.

You're right, Gail (EventHorizon), due to people being more-or-less lazy, "comfort-zone" **sheeple**, positive politico-economic institutional change is difficult---AND, ALSO, falls easy-prey (as it, so far, always has tended-to) to **special interest** corporate-fascist agenda **manipulation/co-optation**. You're right about that, no doubt about it.

You & I are more-or-less on the same page and occasionally in the same paragraph. I was never in Scotland--how could I have such a fine son over there?! [Wink!]. I love your passion about all the stuff you write about. But I think you're a tad bit too cynical/pessimistic (although you, no doubt, subjectively **feel** it in your own mind/soul to be just "realistic"...). You see the glass as, at best, half-**empty**, and filled with polluted, sludgy water no less. I tend to see it as half-**full**, with pollution-galore, to be sure, but with little "scrubbers" slowly-but-surely diminishing the sludge-&-crap. And YOU & I (and the rest of us here at FutureHi, along with good ol' Mike Anissimov at his blog, and many others too boot) ARE THE **SCRUBBERS**!!

I, too, am a bit perturbed by the mainstream "good ol' boy" "Ozzie & Harriet" crap. As well as the more pessimistic/nihilist stuff of some of the "youth culture". But when you mention that you, too, are caught-up in sectarian strife, I'm rather nonplussed! Sectarian strife...**sectarian** **anything**...My God (no pun intended), didn't we already overcome the religious war crap with (and back in the day of) Johnny Locke (a fellow Scot, btw), and surely by the time of Johnny (Stuart) Mill?!?!?! Are we still having catholics-vs.-protestants, for God's sake (again, no pun intended--well, maybe a litte bit...)???!!! Whatever happened to SECULAR (TRANS)HUMANISM!!!???!!! Ya mean even parts of Britain are still warring over "My God's better than your God" or "My religion is the ONE TRUE RELIGION--therefore the rest of you "Others" are heretics and infidels"...???!!! I'm stunned...Hell I thought even the Micks in Northern Ireland had calmed-down (I can use the term "Mick", btw, as I'm half-Irish, and more-or-less proud of it!!). Robert Anton Wilson (RAW) was right to say that Voltaire proclaimed the Enlightenment about 2-3 centuries prematurely---We're still in the Dark Ages!!

Well, EventHorizon, if we are, Global-Culturally Intellectually-memetically, still in the Dark Ages, then we indeed ARE, perhaps, very soon to be screwed, blew'd & tatoo'd. 'Cause the stuff I post about is a-happening, baby! (The tech itself, that is). And we'd damn-well BETTER prepare for it as best we can.

Sure the power-elites will try to screw everyone else--haven't they always (tried, that is)? But WE have to at least try to **outflank 'em**.

One aspect of the **solution**, which is controversial even with some of my closest colleagues, such as Paul & Rev. Tom, among others, is the advocacy (and eventual instantiation) of what good ol' Timbo (Leary, that is) had in mind (!!!): Anyone who wants to reprogram hir (i.e., his/her) brain/mind should be able to systematically, clinically, and affordably DO SO. Every town should have a Tim, a Stanislaw (Groff, that is ), an expert psychologist/psychonaut, to facilitate clinical brain reprogramming. They should be as common and prevalent as dentists & optometrists (or "occulists" for you UK folks)!!! Certified psychonaut/guides for systematic brain-change. Gotta love it...!!!

I have to admit to being just AMAZED that this is (or even was back in the 60's) **at all** controversial. (1) The elites should do entheogens (2) entheogens should be available to "the masses" at least as self-reprogramming aids ***IN CONJUNCTION WITH **CERTIFIED** PSYCHS***. How/why is this controversial? Thanks to both Terry and Dennis (McKenna, that is) along with, now Pinchbeck, Hancock, and others, we now have over 40 more, subsequent (to the 60s) yrs of refinement and confirmation that this sort of thing is perfectly doable. JUST SAY **KNOW**!!! OH...**WOOPS**...I FORGOT...WE'RE STILL IN THE DARK AGES...As Charlie Brown used to say, "Good grief...!!!"

Of course, one reason why clinical **self**brain-reprogramming is frowned-upon by the elite(s) is that, of course, then we'd all be (more-or-less) free agents, no longer at the mercy of corporate-fascist bullshit cultural programming. Again, think John Carpenter's **They Live**...

And you're right, the U.S.A. ain't the whole world, and we need to stop trying to police and meddle. But we're no longer protected by the Atlantic and Pacific oceans as we were up until the mid-20th century. Transnational alliances and protocols and networks (of trade, cultural exchange, etc.) are vital. Again, James Bennett's flawed, but still important and overall pretty-good, book **The AngloSphere Challenge** is an important overview for the next 5-15 yrs. A Globe-girdling alliance/network of English-speaking, liberal/common-law/constitutional-based commonwealth which can lead the world toward the CRITICAL PATH(s) we need to take over the next few decades. This isn't "America First", but, rather, Liberal-Constitutional countries (and, *de facto*, English-speaking and common-law/liberal-based) FIRST, not necessarily in any hegemonic sense, but in an innovative "lead, follow, or get-outta-the-way" more noble sense. This certainly includes UK and Canada and Australia and New Zealand, as well as, to some extent, South Africa, the former Carribean colonies, etc.

More posting to come in little while...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 20, 2006 04:04 PM

Will write more soon, but thought you, Gail/EventHorizon, might be interested in this. New Book: Arthur Herman, *HOW THE SCOTS INVENTED THE MODERN WORLD* (Pb) Three Rivers Press, 2001. About the Scottish Enlightenment & a whole-lot more. Joe-Bob says *check it out*...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 20, 2006 05:26 PM

First sorry for the profanity laden post, and second thanks for your replies.

You say I view the cup as half full, and yeah on many occassions I have had the whole 'we're going to hell fast, and it serves us right' outlook, but to fair, and definatly since I started posting here, Iv tried to view things more realistic, from yes my point of view, and less apocalyptic, tragic, or even absolutely immediate.

I hold grave reservations on what appears to be an intelligent manipulation of facts, possibility, timelines, and desires. The singularity. I do not doubt in theory, on paper, in the mind, it is a rock solid concept. I just feel that there only seems to be two points on this singularity curve, today and the day we hit it.

I came across an article that claimed the singularity does not guarentee exponential qualitative growth rather than exponential quantative grwoth. By this meaning volumne and size of data transfer and manipulation, but nothing fundamentally new. The rate of technological CHANGE or improvement, is not the same as the rate of technological discovery.

So much can easilly not happen, from how my mind looks on the issue, to simply pull any curve off the exponential, and then whole concept ends.

But MCP, my point is that success of failure only time will tell. And in the mean time we have everything else. If the issues of the world are a true concern then you have to be able to imagine along long future in which the singularity or our ascension/transcendance does not occur.

Beleive me when I say we have the same 'end-point' or goals and dreams, just we seem to viewing the likely path to those dreams as being incomparable in length.

And to be honest I would not enjoy crossing my fingers as we accelerate towards the singularity, saying 'thank God it came off' because no one was prepared to take a present day without escape and only really difficult and fundamental issues.

As for my nation and sectarianism, its worn much the same way as I dunno rival gangs might wear their allegiances in the USA. Our history of most of the last thousand years has been one of racial and religious turmoil, and these kinds of memeories die hard. And simply people today see these divisions as things they can use to belong to groups and tribes, and as an outlet for whatever the hell deeply rooted, primal fury they have. But I guess it gives peoples lives meaning, which is all the more shocking and concerning. If only the past could be lessons and examples, not memories and emotions, or maybe not. Tricky thing this human condition.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 21, 2006 01:32 AM

I want to get into this issue a bit deeper, apologies for the double post.

I want to take as much of a long hard look at this issue as I am able to convey in one post, in words, in my own thoughts, on this entire issue, and I see it as being fundamental.

We have the claims, and the wisdom, and the words of many many great people, that the rate of technological advancement and discovery is accelerating. That this rate of acceleration means that if its not done within a few hundred years then its not possible, or conversely that within a short period of time we will stand on a the threshold of omnipotence.

There can be no greater aim for all humanity than the aim towards Godhood. It plays on our megalomaniacal side, it plays on our altrustic, bleeding heart, love for all creation side. There can be no greater hope and aim for all humanity than to trascend everything through the mind. There are no words strong enough to describe the importance, and the fixation/devotion/studious attention to this 'epitome'. I wish to come back to this in more detail if I remember, but what do the pilgrams to Mount Kailash have in their hearts and minds? What do the students and philosophers of all mankinds greatest/deepest words have in mind? Nothing more than the absolute. Some of us dream of being the absolute, some of us dream of knowing the absolute, each and every single one of us knows the absolute in our own lives, somehow, someway.

NOW. (MCP my ignorance of much means it takes me a while to grasp the meanings of much of what is said here. Do you not view existance as God/God as existance, all things as one thing as the alpha and omega? I may be wrong in my interpretation, and by God almighty do I wish to read up more on some of the metaphysical 'implications' in the words between you and Rev. Tom)

Is the ULTIMATE reachable?

Hear me out. We may become masters of everything around us, in so far as we simply are its masters. And yet we could still know nothing, be baffled, stare at existance and know it is still teasing us. Perhaps not, but the point behind all of this is this.

Not Godhood, but mastery. Our power is fundamental, and our knowledge is (ALMOST) absolute. We are beyond description.

I too believe, yes believe, with all my heart, that is our PATH DESTINY CALLING AND MEANING.

We can give so much back, can do so much, can be so much,, when our minds, our souls, our core essence has at its disposal all.

And every single one of you here knows and feels this too.

But, from where I am in this life, I see that we can reach this place, yet perhaps never plumb the depths of 'God'.

And yet when we reach there, we will still be together, it will be us. We cannot hope to make it this way if it is not us. IF it is "I" then it must be CONDEMNED AND DESTROYED.

Can I utter the words enough to tell you the importance of us? what of me? me? me? Do you hear me roar? What of all of us within the breast of me? The ultimate must be us. I have much to learn, to know, to think of, before my own mind will cease its torment, but still, I find myself rising above torments occasionally to attempt to say things, even just to me. It must be us, we must be equal in our individuality.

And by Great Unknown Almighty this is true everywhere.

If we are to stand together as masters of everything and all things, then it will our task to find within and among us the ways to do this, when we reach it, as much as before it.

And this brings me to the question of today, the now, the all that ever is, shall be and can/will be.

We stand before the redefining image of the Singularity. We look to human power as it is now, we listen and look and learn of the possibility and the potential of our future. We take what we have, and we find a path from it to what we have always dreamed of, to that which we can never even begin to dream of. But this path starts today, everday, and weaves through our tomorrows.

And if life teaches us anything, it is that that which we know, is exactly that which we do not know. That that which we bank on and depend upon is undependable and cannot be trusted.

And we stand here, in this time, this present day of ills and problems and greatness and splendour and sickening ill and suffering.

And I wonder, and think to the best of my ability upon these things, this way, this path to the singularity utlimatly means what, and is what? To me it is possible, potential, it is the portal to the deepest dreams that cannot ever be known or understood that half my mind has been fixated upon since the day I learned to recall my memories.

But to me it is this.

It is such a fragile, difficult, unlikely, unrealistic venture. It is born of today and yesterday, and it is manifest in today world.

Here we have a word and work claiming, saying, and desiring all that has ever been secretly contemplated, for Good for Evil or for The Discovery of God. Based upon the possibility, the pontential, that perhaps that which has been considered by a few people as being possible in their own minds might infact make it past all the barriers and hurdles of realistic existance and make it to become true.

And this goal, this dream, this possibility fires us up so much, so god damn fucking much, that we stand before it. We stand before it to praise or to condemn it.

But we do not think of a life without it. Of existance without. And yet all of life, and all of everything we know tells us how unlikely and impossible it is.

And I wish to say this. How does it interact with reality of today?

We have our nations of the world, and we have our rich and our poor, and we have our history, and we have our political climates, and we have our agendas, and our desires, and our hopes, and our dreams and our goals. And this singularity is both a stranger, and at the same time the oldest friend known to man.

Yet all of this, our past present future, hope, dreams, crimes, and existance around us has and always be forever US. Our path our and our journey, our destination and our starting point and all the points inbetween.

Let me get off my high horse for a minute, which often I slip into but shall never ever apologise for. I want to get to my point..

The world today is the fought over and manipulated and experianced and 'informed' result of the world that has always existed.

We have always held these ideals, since as long as we know we have been what we are. We have always still fought and interfered and manipulated each other over what there is and what we are.

And always have been in need of help and change, of ideas and of alteration.

The world today is no more and no less than the world has always been, and those who say otherwise are trully, in my personal and corrupted opinion, fools beyond fools.

So ill be blunt, are we to watch the ills and issues and suffering of the world take a backseat to the development and persuit of the quest for omnipotence?

If you are going to ask me to sit and watch while the ills and problems and issues of this world get sidetracked by the desire for power that the path to godhood requires, then with the extinguished lives and the miserable suffering of all people that have ever lived I am going to stand firm and stand forward and say no, and oppose this point, with every fibre of my being.

There is nothing more important than the self, untill the self stands forward.

And here I stand forward and say this. for every death and every minutes suffering, for every breathe taken as last, for every single last individual that has been denied the opportunity to trascend, and at the same time denied all form of equality and even happiness in the persuit of this goal, I will stand forward and commit my life to denoucing progress of any kind while there is ineqaulity and suffering that can be allieviated.

The political and social mess of this current way of life and all others that has ever gone has cried out for one thing.

EQUALITY. JUSTICE. FREEDOM.

While one person dies while one thousand of you persue ascendancy, I shall be here as long as my creator allows me, to denounce you, and defy and condemn you.

It is one thing to denounce anothers lack of selflessness while you have the choice, and another to watch someone without the choice die in misery and suffering, condemned to a death of unknown outcome, and have no choice, no say, no god damned chance.

Godhood will come, it will come to us when we are ready for it.

Untill that day, It is my role and path on this Earth to cry for those who I do not know, those who's lives fade, those whos lives becomes the fuel or the result of your lack of true vision and selflessness.

We have the power to do so much more than what we do now, and this site is testemant to this, but while peoples minds and entire societies follow the path of potential perfection in a world of constant and continual suffering and inequality, it is up to someone to deny that path in favour of real and true people.

As much as I hate the world, despise human motivations, and condemn the actions of almost all people, I see no other option but for that individual to be me.

Above and beyond this, it is clear to me, that the likelyhood of the singularity becoming utter bullshit is high, that the ideals and aims and hopes of the people persuing it are true.

The singularity offers immediate and instant, so the 'concept' goes, trascendance beyond what we are and have been.

However this 'eschaton' is unlikely. Even if it is likely, we/the world/humanity can only gain from veiwing it is non-existant.

It is time, now, to stare intently into the eyes of our own ultimate, to shed all hopes or dreams of any kind of ascendancy (whether we believe in it or not, I could scream), to denounce, deny, and shun the present day in its current form. We can learn its lessons, take with us its true and genuine knowledge, we can even apply the corrupt and broken to tomorrow, if it makes the transition to the better any easier.

But we must seek the ultimate, the greatest, the better, beyond and away from God/the universe/the almighty. We must seek and build what each of us has always hoped and always known is all we ever needed or deserved in this existance.

It is time to leave the ascent to the things they have not even considered to the dead and the dying, while we embrace this time as the time when humanity itself breathes in deep, and relentlessly persues beyond all obstacle the visions of a human implimented, created, and desires ascent to the epitome of what our minds have ever considered.

I want a just, free, equal... who gives a fuck what I want. Look around you. What a waste, what a misery, what a shortsighted, self serving, mess.
What do we deserve? The chance to live, to make things better. Some dont even get that.

Forget the singularity, if it happens we get planeted with a whole fucking existance full of new issues. If it doesnt, then expect things in the world today to alter slightly, and expect people like me to be calling for the simple and basic, for the chance we deserve to bring our worth to the existance that allowed us.

Singularity or not, it makes no difference to the fundamentals, the only matter is time.

But yeah, I wanted to inspire the rich and comfortable into stop being greedy fucks and start helping and showing the rest of the world the way to become a better race, and ultimatly a better existance, but yeah I keep failing. Damn.

Roar

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 21, 2006 01:44 PM

FFS

Posted by: Thisisreallyhappening at May 23, 2006 12:56 AM

FFS? You are a leech that parasites off comments to boost your own self esteem, and the only times you have ever commented upon an issue have shown you to be one the most shallow, fake people I have had the displeasure and misfortune to come across in my life.

The only reason you come here is to find some kind of redemption for your selfish motivations and greedy lifestyle, you have said as much often enough, and while you are here all you wish to do is slander, attack, or score points. I have yet to see you bring up an original point, much less an original point of view, and even if you have one you are far too afraid of showing weakness that could be exploited like the way you exploit others for your own chest-swelling to actually try to articulate it.

I see you attack a long passionate post with a three letter insult, rather than comment on the issue that has been discussed for atleast the last 4-5 posts.

About par for the course for you huh?

Or are people and personalities and ways of seeing things outside of the accepted group norm to be shunned, ridiculed, and have their inferior intelligence mocked?

The only one around here worthy of a FFS is you, for being such a WASTE.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 23, 2006 05:21 AM

EventHorizon (Gail): I hardly know where to begin, and am pressed for time. Alas, you simply seem not to understand (quite a lot, actually...apparently) I really don't mean to be patronizing or condescending, but much (virtually all) of your (2nd) post subsequent to mine above (i.e., at this point, your next-to-the-most-recent-post, above, which you end with "ROAR") is passionate (to be sure...) yet little more than or other than a bunch of toddler-tantrum incoherent nonsense/drivel. Sorry to be so, if it be so, "brutal", but that posting clearly evinces that you don't have the first clue as to HOW to bring about what you want to bring about. Spouting incredibly stupid (forgive me, dear boy, but it is STUPID) egalitarian, quasi-"socialist", vague, not-at-all-supported, not-at-all-thought-out, not-at-all-suggestive-of-actual-implementable-(or-even-discussable)-SOLUTIONS/PROPOSALS, is simply, to say the VERY, VERY **LEAST**, completely UNHELPFUL, and really, in my judgment, NOT ADDING-TO--OR EVEN MEANINGFULLY/RELEVANTLY "KEEPING UP WITH"--THE CONVERSATION HERE AT FUTUREHI. Now, having said THAT, let me quickly say that, **NO**, I don't want you to stop posting or be kicked-off, NOT AT ALL...

But on to specifics...the CORE of that post is:

>>>>>So ill be blunt, are we to watch the ills and issues and suffering of the world take a backseat to the development and persuit of the quest for omnipotence?

If you are going to ask me to sit and watch while the ills and problems and issues of this world get sidetracked by the desire for power that the path to godhood requires, then with the extinguished lives and the miserable suffering of all people that have ever lived I am going to stand firm and stand forward and say no, and oppose this point, with every fibre of my being.

...

And here I stand forward and say this. for every death and every minutes suffering, for every breathe taken as last, for every single last individual that has been denied the opportunity to trascend, and at the same time denied all form of equality and even happiness in the persuit of this goal, I will stand forward and commit my life to denoucing progress of any kind while there is ineqaulity and suffering that can be allieviated.

This is well-intentioned (I'll grant for the sake of argument), but ultimately incredibly STUPID, knee-jerk, no-doubt-British-leftist/socialist-bullshit-inspired UTTER-FUCKING-INCO-MUTHERFUCKING-HERENT ***DRIVEL***, EventHorizon, no more, and ya can't get much less.

HOW, PRAY MOTHERFUCKING GODDAMN TELL, ARE WE (INDIVIDAULLY OR JOINTLY/COLLECTIVELY)TO **DO** ("PULL-OFF", WHATEVER...) YOUR RHETORICAL CRAP???!!! If you want redistribution--fine...but you bet come up with a knock-down-drag-out irrefuteable THEORY that justifies the exact sort of redistribution you crave--'cause such a theory ain't mfucking goddamn obvious, bro, let me fucking tell ya!!!!

"Side-tracked on the path to godhood..."?????!!!!! Are you huffing some bad shit or WHAT. What does that fucking rheotric even mean???!!!

You want to solve the problems that you fret-over, Gail???!!! Then help see to it that cybernation/roboticization is instantiated smoothly, and that people can obtain income from it, and don't have to be wage-slaves. There are plenty of ideas on how to accomplish this. WHY DON'T YOU CHECK THEM THE FUCK OUT?

The BEST way to "solve" all the problems you fret over (whatever the fuck they are, since you don't detail them...) is to help see to it that robot-tech and nano-tech ARE brought-forward and optimally-instantiated A.S.A.P.

We need a new, global monetary system--ideally one based on energy and energy-transactions. The GENI project has already laid the groundwork for this by spearheading the research for completely integrating the world's electrical energy grid... Check 'em the fuck out. My fucking god, man, can't you use a search-fucking-engine and find their fucking site???!!!

So you're gonna "denounce" "progress" until we (who the fuck is "we", pale-face??!!) more-or-less instantly "alleviate" all the "suffering" in the world? GROW THE FUCK UP!! This is merely teenage (I thought you were 21 for god's sake) "angst"-ridden rhetorical bullshit. If you want to play with the adults, goddamn it, then look-into already-existing paths/organizations for achieving one or more of the "goals" that you seek to be achieved.

Economics 101: Trade-offs, costs...Joe-Bob says, check it out! Alleviate suffering, get the STATE off folks' backs!! Want techno-economic progress (which, *****if properly brought-forth & instantiated****, will "do" all the things you're stomping/fuming/whining over)...then work for it, advocate it, find out what it takes, institutionally, to optimally and quickly bring it about...

"All the issues and suffering in the world..." ****WILL**** BE "SOLVED" OR "ALLEVIATED" BY HELPING TO GET THE WORLD ON THE PROPER CRITICAL PATH(ES) TOWARD THE SINGULARITY. ****WHAT**** (THE MOTHERFUCK!!!) DON'T YOU ****GET**** ABOUT THAT!!!!?????????

Yeah, politicians are politicians (i.e., narcissistic, power-drunk, semi-psychopaths) (figure out how to best)DEAL WITH IT, GODDAMNIT!!

Yeah, Corporations are greedy, power-drunk, in-cahoots-with-politicians entities. But they still have to bow to market demand and reality(s). Learn some economics, learn some political-economics (i.e., Public Choice theory). Learn (become aware of) about what alternatives are developing...determine how YOU can ACT to make a DIFFERENCE...

Gotta go for now. I'm sorry to rail at you, Gail/EventHorizon, but much of what you have to say is simply space-taking-up, useless, rhetorical DRIVEL. Now, one might also say that MY STUFF is, too. And there might be some merit in that (if so, a thousand apologies)---BUT AT LEAST I TRY TO OFFER REFERENCES, SUGGESTIONS, INFORMATION (AS DO, OFTENTIMES, UPWINGER, AND CHRIS/LVX23, AND PAUL HIMSELF AND OTHERS). I ***DON'T*** JUST RANT & RAVE & WHINE & SPOUT WHINY PLATITUDES-&-RHETORICAL CRAP. I TRY TO TALK ABOUT PERTINENT ***DEVELOPMENTS*** WHETHER IN THEORY (SUCH AS SIRAG'S STUFF, E.G.) OR WHATNOT.

Sorry, Kid-O, I'm not trying to be mean, and I don't doubt for a minute your sincerity...but sincerity only goes so far...after all Hitler (and Dubya) were (is) more-or-less genuinely, actually "sincere"!!!!! So motherfucking what?? Sincerity ain't everything---a lot, OK---but DAMN WELL not everything...

Didn't mean to come-on like a "flame war" but please carefully try to absorb and understand what I've been trying to get-at here...

Live long & prosper, all...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 23, 2006 04:47 PM

"EventHorizon (Gail): I hardly know where to begin, and am pressed for time."

First of all, Mark, my name is Steven.

"Alas, you simply seem not to understand (quite a lot, actually...apparently)"

Apparently so, never denied, admitted often, as a prelude to contantly asking for and desiring more knowledge than I have.

But dont bullshit here, the same motivations, the same personal bullshit that sees me 'interpreting' whatever or not even viewing is the same as what every other, including you, has within themselves.

So while you may be a fount of knowledge, and I may not, lets not forget the lessons of 'Thisisreallyhappenings' subjective/objective bullshit, even if he didnt quite realise what he was espousing.

"little more than or other than a bunch of toddler-tantrum incoherent nonsense/drivel."

Well I could lead the 'happy life' and none of this would matter. If im screaming like a child, because I only know like a child, have a childs knowledge, or understanding, does that mean there is no problem? You say nonsense and drivel, but how can you say the simple true wrongs are nonesense and drivel? So I have not got a PhD to prove I spent 20 years studying the depth of bullshit that goes some way to explaining how its justified, but so what?

"that posting clearly evinces that you don't have the first clue as to HOW to bring about what you want to bring about."

Amen, and fuck you, to be fair.

"Spouting incredibly stupid (forgive me, dear boy, but it is STUPID) egalitarian, quasi-"socialist", vague, not-at-all-supported, not-at-all-thought-out, not-at-all-suggestive-of-actual-implementable-(or-even-discussable)-SOLUTIONS/PROPOSALS"

Barring the socialist part, I could easilly apply every single one of these words to the point of view you have been putting forward since I started reading your posts. Maybe because of my vast ignorance, or my deep rooted political values, rock solid unchangeable vision of the world, but the fact remains that what you speak of is not FACT MCP. It is potential, possiblity, dreams, stone cold hopes.

Non thought-out non-discussable. Now while you may have the entirety of this site on your side, explain to me how the singularity and other craptastic visions of ultimate saving is any more thought out or discussable than what I have been saying? Because it fits in totally with some metaphysical view you hold? Thats bullshit and you know it. Dont tell me it doesnt plague you, even slightly. Because it plagues me, but I know nothing, so for fuck sake go right ahead and ENLIGHTEN ME.

"VERY, VERY **LEAST**, completely UNHELPFUL"

Unhelpful for who? How many people today, or infact while I write this, breathe last breath and fucking die? DIE? DEAD. When the money Britney Spears spends on makeup could perhaps have let them live a bit longer.

Helpful for who MCP? For them? For me? For you? You dont want to die do you? Oh no, do you fuck, and yet there are MANY MANY PEOPLE dying all the fucking time, DYING. CAN I SAY IT LOUDER? DYING DYING DYING. So tell me who this helps. Tell me who your vision helps? The future? If it comes off thats still a GOD DAMNED DISPUTABLE POINT.

"KEEPING UP WITH"--THE CONVERSATION HERE AT FUTUREHI."

Conversation? Anyway. First of all my intentions has never been to keep up with the conversation here at futurehi. Im not interested in hexagrams, or fractal timewaves, or any other such psychadelic induced attempts at explaining existance.

When someone steps forward and offers an answer to MY question as to HOW anything can EXIST, then ill sit up and take notice. Im not interested in the 'it cant be known, it just is that way' BULLSHIT. I want to know the fundamental behind the ability TO EXIST. Simple as that.

Hell if im missing the point, then someone give up mere hours at most of their time, and enlighten me, or not. Im not asking for miracle, just answers.

And as for keeping up with the conversation, as far as I am aware/concerned, we have technofantastic escapes to the unknown as a POSSIBILE at best "solution" to current situations, and absolutely NO serious discussion regarding the fundamental aspects of existance. Just bullshit on how to 'interpret it'.
I have a short temper, I dont want to read a quadrillion posts on how 'existance is everything I see, I make it' because thats nothing. Nothing. No answer to the questions, the QUESTION that always has and always will reside past that.
Yeah 'the' question. 'We cant know it, understand it, there is no answer'. Thanks.

"**NO**, I don't want you to stop posting or be kicked-off, NOT AT ALL..."

Well thats up to me isnt it? Ultimatly. But I cant see myself changing based on current evidence. So maybe a ban is in order.

"But on to specifics...the CORE of that post is:

>>>>>So ill be blunt, are we to watch the ills and issues and suffering of the world take a backseat to the development and persuit of the quest for omnipotence?

If you are going to ask me to sit and watch while the ills and problems and issues of this world get sidetracked by the desire for power that the path to godhood requires, then with the extinguished lives and the miserable suffering of all people that have ever lived I am going to stand firm and stand forward and say no, and oppose this point, with every fibre of my being.

...

And here I stand forward and say this. for every death and every minutes suffering, for every breathe taken as last, for every single last individual that has been denied the opportunity to trascend, and at the same time denied all form of equality and even happiness in the persuit of this goal, I will stand forward and commit my life to denoucing progress of any kind while there is ineqaulity and suffering that can be allieviated."

Absolutely. ROAAAAAR. What a bullshit mess we have, and what a bullshit mess you are potentially begging for, IMO.

What can possibly mean more in life that what you leave behind after you die?

With this in mind, all I can see myself currently advocating, living for, and doing, is speaking, or yelling, out in favour of a greater, better, more equal existance for all people, in the face and in spite of all agendas, desires, or directions and motivations there might exist.

If my path is wrong, then it wont be for lack of trying, and it can be changed, or else all I am, and all I have ever said, is nothing.

"This is well-intentioned (I'll grant for the sake of argument), but ultimately incredibly STUPID, knee-jerk, no-doubt-British-leftist/socialist-bullshit-inspired UTTER-FUCKING-INCO-MUTHERFUCKING-HERENT ***DRIVEL***, EventHorizon, no more, and ya can't get much less."

MCP I dont know what it is, but thank you for telling me.

Bullshit aside, this is simply the current incarnation of our little national battle we have been running for three threads. Wrong? Did I sting you before? Because ill be frank, your intitial catagorical presentation of your NATION stung me alot. Why? I live in a nation of strong national ties. Nationality has been the cornerstone of human histories 3 (IMO) most powerful and defining events, and it is ultimatly meaningless and the biggest source and form of discrimination that exits.

Nationality is the strongest form of discrimination that currently exists.

I want to say that again and clearer so everyone can see this point of view.

"INCO-MUTHERFUCKING-HERENT ***DRIVEL***, EventHorizon, no more, and ya can't get much less"

Its not incoherent. I advocate the removal of national dicrimination, nation boundaries, differences and problems caused by nations. I could say the same about religion, or colour, or sex, or sexuality, or whatever TBH. Its the same god damned thing as far as my chidlish thinking goes.

"HOW, PRAY MOTHERFUCKING GODDAMN TELL, ARE WE (INDIVIDAULLY OR JOINTLY/COLLECTIVELY)TO **DO** ("PULL-OFF", WHATEVER...) YOUR RHETORICAL CRAP???!!! If you want redistribution--fine...but you bet come up with a knock-down-drag-out irrefuteable THEORY that justifies the exact sort of redistribution you crave--'cause such a theory ain't mfucking goddamn obvious, bro, let me fucking tell ya!!!!"

So you have been searching too? Way to lay into a fellow searcher.

I said before, the systems of the nations in the world are becoming ever more similar (history check 1945 to now) because of the desire for progress requires money, which means persuit of wealth, which means capitalism. The underlying systems of all nations are becoming ever more identical, and some of us nations have even tried forms of intenerational law, and 'interferance'.

I am advocating no more and no less than the bolstering of these systems to a level where INDIVIDUAL NATIONS no longer have overall power over ALL matters.

Now how do we approach this issue? YOU ARE AMERICAN YOU TELL ME. Not meaning to be racist, but you see my fucking point MCP?

The strong and the powerful are not going to agree to this kind of view in the climate of todays existance. How do we proceed from here?

Well my view is the long term dissemination of ideas. But you see the singularity, and it IS BLINDING YOU. In my weak and ignorant opinion.

"Side-tracked on the path to godhood..."?????!!!!! Are you huffing some bad shit or WHAT. What does that fucking rheotric even mean???!!!!

It means that our path to Godhood is not a single set in stone eschaton, but we can get there through the addressing of the worlds issues, and not some technological epiphany. And it sensible not to be over fixated with any one issue, especially not in this life. Thats what I mean.
Rhetoric is the art of ruling minds. I have no desire to go down that path, even if I could. My own is incomplete, and weak, and desires answers.

"You want to solve the problems that you fret-over, Gail???!!! Then help see to it that cybernation/roboticization is instantiated smoothly,"

Why because you follow this view point? I am trying very hard to engage discussion that is not totally attunened to invidual existance (something I feel you empathise with), and trying to find, what I see or feel, as a realistic and possible path to many tomorrows leading to the ultimate future I see we can possibly make.

I dont see how roboticisation and cybernation IN THEMSELVES can get there.

Or to REALLY address the issue, HERE WE ARE discussing THOSE VERY ISSUES a roboticised/cybernetic world is going to come up against, perhaps with less preventable deaths and slightly or even markedly improved life situations.

MCP. You cannot have inequality and hope for anything better. Its a false dream. Do you not see? I dont deny the promise and premise and potential for these things, but I advocate ABOVE ALL OF THEM humans beings be treated equally, have the same opportunities, and have equal potential and opportunity and chances in their lives, be treated the same by the system if not each other.

Its not about these techs, its about us. We can go without these techs and perhaps some of us most fortunate (and believe it or not in the world Scotland is still a reasonable nation) might suffer potential consequences, but thosem of us most suffering and weakest and most shunned and denied and treated most inequal can have far more opportunities and FAR BETTER LIVES BEFORE THEY DIE.

And perhaps we can even get to a stage where we are all equal, and then persue this ascendancy.

But like you said before "such a theory ain't mfucking goddamn obvious, bro, let me fucking tell ya!!!!"

But im not prepared to give up. Perhaps because im young and experianced, or perhaps because I have such a fucking fire in me, you decide, I dont care.

"and that people can obtain income from it, and don't have to be wage-slaves. "

You cant have income, human motivations and desires, and not have wage slaves.

Your answer is the singularity, or a higher level of earning across the world.

A higher level of earning will still produce systematicall (outside of physiological/mental) envy and jealousy. It will still produce hate and desire and GREED.

GREED. Number ONE problem in the world throughout all of history and today, and by your solutions, all of tomorrow.

MY AIM IS TO REDUCE AS MUCH GREED AND ENVY AND JEALOUSY AS POSSIBLE.

As the basic foundation for the development of our species towards our DREAMS.

How do I do this? No idea whatsoever, spreading the idea around seems like a good way to go for now.

"The BEST way to "solve" all the problems you fret over (whatever the fuck they are, since you don't detail them...) is to help see to it that robot-tech and nano-tech ARE brought-forward and optimally-instantiated A.S.A.P."

No MCP, this is where your views, IMO, are fundamentally flawed.

These are new and radical technologies, not radical and new systems of interaction, nor ethical rules for humanity.

Robo and nano tech will solve SOME or even MANY issues. But they dont even touch on the FUNDAMENTAL AND BASIC ISSUES of humanity.

Greed, envy, jealousy, desire, intolerance.
This is where we differ, IMO.

"We need a new, global monetary system--ideally one based on energy and energy-transactions. "

IDEALLY.... one that doesnt exist. Ideally.

"The GENI project has already laid the groundwork for this by spearheading the research for completely integrating the world's electrical energy grid... Check 'em the fuck out. My fucking god, man, can't you use a search-fucking-engine and find their fucking site???!!!"

You mean like all the other sites iv visited based on this sites suggestion?

The best link I personally have found from this site is The Orion Project, no goddamned joke.

But no, I admit to you, I'v not studied alot of the material you have suggested to me. My flaws are I am lazy and impulsive, and I admit to you I have not done you the decency of studying much of the material I have asked you for, and not only does that deserve and apology, but the actual carrying out of what I have said I would do.

"So you're gonna "denounce" "progress" until we (who the fuck is "we", pale-face??!!) more-or-less instantly "alleviate" all the "suffering" in the world?"

We being those of us who vote. Those of us whos basic desires are satisfied enough by our LUCK AT PLACE OF BIRTH (thats right think on that one for a while), and systems of control to be able to devote out attentions to meaningful things like religious/racial intolerance, TV and pop music, or the next fuck, or if they are REALLY lucky, our kids.

"Pale Face"

There is an ancient African hunting technique, called the peristance hunt.
A gang of hunters will track a group of herbivores, and like Lions they will isolate an individual.
Once this individual has been isolated and seperated from the herd, a single will be given to an individual within the hunting party to begind the real hunt.

This individual will follow his preys every movement, conserving his strength and using his natural empathy to track the animals every turn.
Running over long distances with two legs is more energy efficient than running with four.
The hunter/tracker will eventually catch up with his exhausted prey (or his familly go hungry).
With both animals on the verge of collapse, the one with the spear is able to dispatch his collapsed and exhausted prey. The hunter then performs a ritual ensuring the spirit of the hunted animal returns to the Earth from which it came.

Who the fuck are you calling Pale Face?

"GROW THE FUCK UP!! This is merely teenage (I thought you were 21 for god's sake) "angst"-ridden rhetorical bullshit. "

I make no apologies for who I am, nor what age I am. I remember the first post you ever wrote in responce to me, and I find it remarkeably similar to this.

I hope my angst never leaves me, and I doubt it ever will.

"If you want to play with the adults, goddamn it, then look-into already-existing paths/organizations for achieving one or more of the "goals" that you seek to be achieved."

And where are they? Here? The Singularity Institute? Hows that blog you were thinking of writing? I was thinking of maybe commenting on it, if you would let me.

Play with Adults, thats amusing.

So far I see little in what I have experianced in my short life that is remotely condusive to the 'goals' I have in view, this site in some ways being one of the view, otherwise I wouldnt be here.

"Economics 101: Trade-offs, costs...Joe-Bob says"

Well yeah, that definatly (however unfortunatly/reluctantly) has to be taking into consideration and even acknowledged as a fundamental aspect of any kind of contemplation of issues and progress/answers/development, of some kind of advancement or change or even progression from today onwards.

"Alleviate suffering, get the STATE off folks' backs!!"

Well, if it wasnt for the 'state' you would be dead, TBH/IMO. I think rather than getting the state off people backs the state needs to be remodelled. In which direction and fundamentally how is a tricky situation, but it goes without saying that A: it must be changed and that B: currently it cannot be removed, regardles of your feelings or points of view.

"Want techno-economic progress"

That depends, and in the spirit/method/situation you are suggesting, not really.

"(which, *****if properly brought-forth & instantiated****, will "do" all the things you're stomping/fuming/whining over).."

So you, and all your website, economo/political/techno/philsophical commentators say. I have my reservations over technological innovation and its power over basic and seemingly unchanging human motivations/desires/principles/divisions etc. etc.

"then work for it, advocate it, find out what it takes, institutionally, to optimally and quickly bring it about..."

MCP it might not be a quick fix.

""All the issues and suffering in the world..." ****WILL**** BE "SOLVED" OR "ALLEVIATED" BY HELPING TO GET THE WORLD ON THE PROPER CRITICAL PATH(ES) TOWARD THE SINGULARITY. ****WHAT**** (THE MOTHERFUCK!!!) DON'T YOU ****GET**** ABOUT THAT!!!!?????????"

The potential exists for some surface issues to be addressed, but deep rooted issues still have to be flushed out and dealt with, or left to forever fester and exist.

How do you not see this?

"Yeah, politicians are politicians (i.e., narcissistic, power-drunk, semi-psychopaths) (figure out how to best)DEAL WITH IT, GODDAMNIT!!"

Untill things change I have no other choice, but im young, what do I know?

"Yeah, Corporations are greedy, power-drunk, in-cahoots-with-politicians entities. But they still have to bow to market demand and reality(s)."

Wrong, they exist through the persuit of market demand realities, I.E the potential to make money.

No company or corporation exists because it *has to*, they exist to make money.

"Learn some economics, learn some political-economics (i.e., Public Choice theory). Learn (become aware of) about what alternatives are developing...determine how YOU can ACT to make a DIFFERENCE..."

Keep telling me, maybe one day I will understand this point.

"Gotta go for now. I'm sorry to rail at you, Gail/EventHorizon, but much of what you have to say is simply space-taking-up, useless, rhetorical DRIVEL."

Dont be sorry if you mean it.

No one else on this site alteast has spoken out with anything remotely close to my point of view.

The issues of the world are seen here occasionally as NON-ISSUES.

Let the rich, or the comfortable, who can read this, promote happiness as a way to solving the worlds issues.

Equals drug addication, dont deny this.

Or we have your kind of techno/economic/developmental solutions, which to be fair to myself, go absolutely no where near the CURRENT issues, nor the POTENTIAL future issues, which are VERY likely to the be very same issues.

The way I see it, and point out the flaws in my thinking, is that if the world has a dramaticlly improved system of economics and government then the world becomes a scale model of the current USA, or slightly better.

If the systems that rule our lives to ensure we dont all die or kill each other were the same across the world we would have a much broader and stronger starting position for any kind of future pathway.

How much easier would it be to address the middle east if the focus was on infrastructure?

People are much less likely to desire to act so psychotically if they are pacified with comfortable lives (to be blunt), and these systems of pacification can grow towards a much more equal and much more efficient system of global operation.

A much more stable and solid basis for a species attempting to attain near god-hood.

I may know nothing, but I know people are jealous, envious, and more often than not think of themselves or their immediate familly before and above immeasurably every other consideration.

If this cannot be tempered in the rich and powerful, and manipiluted in the weak and resentful/jealous, then we can never attain any kind of balance nor equality.

And that means hate. Simple.

And thats not including those who simply fucking starve.

"BUT AT LEAST I TRY TO OFFER REFERENCES, SUGGESTIONS, INFORMATION (AS DO, OFTENTIMES, UPWINGER, AND CHRIS/LVX23, AND PAUL HIMSELF AND OTHERS). I ***DON'T*** JUST RANT & RAVE & WHINE & SPOUT WHINY PLATITUDES-&-RHETORICAL CRAP. I TRY TO TALK ABOUT PERTINENT ***DEVELOPMENTS*** WHETHER IN THEORY (SUCH AS SIRAG'S STUFF, E.G.) OR WHATNOT."

The theories of others are the theories that have not managed to reach our dreams. Dont forget that, untill we reach Utopia.

I admire what you try to do, but I feel personally you have become far to engrossed with the mechanics and potential results of the modern world to consider the different, original, and idealistic, which is what all people everywhere will awlays desire ultimatly.

"Sorry, Kid-O, I'm not trying to be mean, and I don't doubt for a minute your sincerity...but sincerity only goes so far...after all Hitler (and Dubya) were (is) more-or-less genuinely, actually "sincere"!!!!! So motherfucking what?? Sincerity ain't everything---a lot, OK---but DAMN WELL not everything..."

MCP im 22, there exists in the world today plenty space for a Bin Laden / Adolf mark 666.

I bet you there are plenty of people in the world willing to follow, or even hoping for such a guy.

This technological path might make us gods, or it might address some surface issues for a number of decades.

Try to envision this future.

If you are not right, and if what I espouse does not become reality, then I can guarentee you ATLEAST 100-200 years of guys like these being constant and real and even extremelly powerful scars on our races history.

"Didn't mean to come-on like a "flame war" but please carefully try to absorb and understand what I've been trying to get-at here..."

Tried my best, understood much of where are you are coming from, I hope, but I still maintain it doesnt matter how ignorant, unrealstic or youthful my view is, there are few paths to true peace and prosperity for more than a select few than actual equality.

"Live long & prosper, all..."

Irrelevant, Mark, but I dont agree with human caused/preventable death.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 23, 2006 07:45 PM

Mascara
by Killing Heidi

Stumbling along
but you don't know where you've been
cos your eyes
always on your feet
if you ever looked up
you'd see the sun
in the morning
wonder why things are so bleak

Boring and old
are the things you're told
about the outside world
just wearing black wont take care of that
don't be stupid girl

Walking
always talking
never listening
you just kick back
how do you handle
all the bullshit
that gets thrown your way

boring and old are the things you're told
about the outside world
just wearing black
won't take care of that
don't be stupid girl
oh
down on your knees
trying to appease
but is make-up statement
cos in not much time
your beliefs and your lies will be left by the pavement

i've been doing some thinking
about all that preaching and i dont wanna know
cos that's just so unfortunate
that's just so pathetic
i just can't see

boring and old are the things you're told
about the outside world
just wearing black won't take care of that don't be stupid girl
dont be stupid
down on your knees trying to appease
but is make-up statement
cos in not much time
your beliefs and your lies
will be left by the pavement
they'll be left in the way
left by the pavement
ow oh oh
oh
dont be so stupid girl
you really are
just dressed in black won't take care of that
don't be
be so stupid girl

Posted by: Thisisreallyhappening at May 23, 2006 08:38 PM

Kelly Watch the Stars
by Air

Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch
the stars
Kelly watch the stars
The stars the stars
the stars

Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the
stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars

Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
The
stars the stars the stars

Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly watch the stars
Kelly
watch the stars Kelly watch the stars

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 23, 2006 09:18 PM

EventHorizon/Steven: At one point a few months ago, I seem to recall your having said your name is "Gail." Now it's "Steven." OK, fine. And the "Pale Face" thing was meant humorously, as a take-off on an old (supposedly, "cowboy-&-indians" or "western") movie cliche. My sincere & deep apology if that was misinterpreted by you & offended you. You seem to imply that, while a Scot, you're also NOT a "pale face," and then you allude to a (more-or-less) tropical-African context, describing (concisely & superbly, I might add) the "Persistent Hunt", with which, yes, I am already somewhat familiar (but, again you did an excellent job in describing its meaning). So, are we to infer from all this that your genetic background is (at least partially) tropical-African (i.e., "black") instead of (or perhaps **in addtion to**) being partially Scot-Celtic? In any event, I again apologize for having inadvertantly offended you.

While the "railing" was quite sincerely-said, I nonetheless apologize (though only slightly) for its "tone". But it's when I start "cussing" "like a sailor" or "enough to make (even) a sailor blush" that you know I mean business. (Which is not to say, of course, that I not just as serious/sincere in my more--shall we say--*calmer* moments [wink]...

EQUALITY...of what? In terms of what? In terms of the law? Sure that's a liberal-imperative, jurisprudentially-speaking...Equality of income-and/or-wealth? **Exact equality...to the penny?!** How do we achieve this, given the ***CURRENT*** state of the world? Well, then we have to change the world...well, yeah, maybe, OK, but HOW, Steven, HOW to you propose to do that? What does it entail as an agenda? WHAT is the "first step first..." as it were. Don't know? OK, but then how do you know that's even a sufficiently well-defined goal. EQUALITY...of **power**, perhaps? OK, how do you propose to bring that about?

You seem to want something along the lines of a Utopian anarcho-communism-*cum*-eudaimonism. And let me tell ya, bro, that's more-or-less compatible with my vision as well. We'll still have to have rules, protocols and rights (including some sort of property rights), but something asymtotically-approaching anarcho-communism/eudaimonism may just be possible. But guess-fucking-what? It will only be possible in the context of techno-economic ABUNDANCE. It is virtually impossible with bulk-tech at the bottom of a 4K-mile gravity-well (i.e., on a planet such as Earth). Now, even with bulk tech we might be able to achieve something closely appproximating super-abundance...again, see the musing of Louis O. Kelso, James Albus, Hans Moravec, to name just a few. But to really approximate genuine *post-scarcity* (which is, in the limiting case, almost *praxeologically* *impossible*, though closely *approachable*) we'll need to have the capabilities of nanotech, as envisioned by Drexler, Kurzweil, et al. We'll need to be able to "download" whatever knowledge/skill/ability/talent we need/want, as well as to be able to acquire virtually any physical good for very nearly zero-cost. And that's coming, by mid-century, give or take a quarter-century. Meantime, we need to switch to a completely **energy-based** global monetary system, which will facilitate progress toward proper/optimal instantion (and even initial innovation) of the relevant technology(s).

Tech really is IT (no pun on "IT", btw, intended), Kid-O. And here's why: Humans *are*--quintessentially--THE technological species, and we've been developing/evolving over hundreds and thousands of millenia, in a ever-progressing--and EVER-*QUIKENING*--dynamic, synergetic **feedback looping** spiral. We now know this to be not even just exponentially occurring, but, in fact, **super-exponentially** occurring. Humans are catalysts, but not, at least not exclusively, **drivers**. Something Cosmic is going on. A Cosmic developmental/evolutionary process, with humans at the very heart of it, but not exclusively the drivers of it...

Gotta go...more in minute or two (being kicked-off)...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 24, 2006 09:50 AM

I'm back, but pressed-for-time yet again (am somewhat **under-the-weather** today, as yesterday, and yet have chores to do...)

But, to continue...We humans are essentially a technological species. Now that's not to say that tech has (**so **far** **) solved all our problems. But it is to say that tech is (at least one of our main) cultural-evolutionary drivers. And, sure, tech can be used to Orwellianly oppress & suppress. We have to guard (and rail) against that. But tech is not only here-to-stay, it is the very basis for solving whatever remaining problems (and there are many of 'em) that humankid still has.

Steven, we really do need to **complete** the Enlightenment. If the world (all the indvidual minds of/in the world) were to fulling absorb and integrate Enlightment Values, much (though perhaps not all) of the bullshit in the world--based as it is on sectarian lunacy (need I name names or regions-of-the-world *here*?), ideological lunacy (again need I name names or specific clumps of ideological rhetoric?), as witnessed in Castro & Chavez, along with almost every other "regime" south of the U.S.A., and as also witnessed in much of British crap, continental-European crap, Eurasian crap (Vlad, China, s.e. asia) South-Central asian crap (from the middle-east, or "Levant" all the way over to India, Bangladesh & Myanmar (what was fucking wrong with keeping the name Burma anyway?!!). And, of course, don't forget Africa. Natural resouces by the mega-ton, resort/tourist possibilities (but get rid of the Malaria, not to mention Ebola!!), the genuine physical basis (though not yet infrastructural basis, at least not completely...), and yet we have warlord, after dictator, after civil-war factions, after, well you get the point...

We need--desparately--a change of MEMES, Steven. Liberal-constitutionalist MEMES. Without a change in the culture, the mind-set, most countries cannot be liberal republics. And yet, and here's the wonderful thing, if one **can** get a liberal-constitutionalist (meta)political framework established, then it can, if properly instantiated, with proper power-diffusing safeguards, be self-sustaining and even what amounts to self-replicating or self-propagating within a region. You don't get community, Steven, you don't get "goodwill-among-men", you don't get generosity, compassion, empathy, etc. within a social/political context of oppression, top-down micro-management (even if more-or-less benign, which it rarely is all that much anyway), and hierarchical politics. People need stability and security, otherwise it's dog-eat-dog.

Which is why, although I'm otherwise a pretty thorough-going classic-liberal/individualist, I'm also sympathetic to at least discussing proposals to incentivize and make possible the broadening of capital-ownership, the diffusion of wealth/power, so as to provide a basis for socio-economic security in an age of cybernation & robotics which is very fast approaching. But civil liberties are paramount. Equality before the law and the Rule of Law are paramount.

Sure people are suffering, even here in U.S., in UK in Canada and Australia and NZ. Greed? No, not really, at least not on the individual consumer level. Power lust? In politicians and policy "wonks" and lobbyists, etc...oh, yeah, for sure. Corporations? They're required by law to be greedy for their stockholder's sake (or weren't you aware of this?).

The best thing for you, me, everyone, to do is to try to become aware of what's going on, what the alternatives are, what the win/win/win/win path(es) is (are), and thing seek to nudge things in that (those) direction(s). You're greedy, Steven, are you not? You WANT what you WANT. A tautology? Superficially, yes, to be sure. But not a *vacuous* or *trivial* tautology. People, even practicing Buddhist adepts WANT stuff. But if they're psychologically **healthy** (a moot point oftentimes, again, *to be sure*), they don't crave to dominated other humans simply for the sake of dominating them. Nor do they necessarily seek a super-amount of wealth/income (though one can never have too much wealth--it all depends on what you do with it...). A psychologically-healthy human being seeks basically Maslow's hierarchy, and the penultimate pinnicle of which is the earned/deserved/merit esteem of peers/fellows through one's own (ongoing) demonstration of excellence(s). Beyond that, at the very pinnicle, is the need/desire for self-actualization, the need/desire to explore/expand one's own limits, one's own capabilities, etc., etc. **None** of this involves dominating (much less oppressing) others (except, perhaps, as far as "domination" goes, in the context of mutually-self-chosen **games**---see the superb work of philosopher Bernard Suits, **The Grasshopper: Games, Life & Utopia**)

Yet we have factions, warlords, politicians, lobbyists...Both institutional change and MEMETIC change needs to be brought about by US--the INTELLIGENCE AGENTS, OR "SCRUBBERS" AS I SAID ABOVE. Pick your issue, pick your meme or meme-complex, and then GO ON THAT ***PERSISTENT HUNT***...BE TENACIOUS.

But don't merely rail against the Warlords, Osama, the truly-evil Islamo-fascists, the petty tyrant which still dot the world like so many flecks of dogshit, ruling over their little fiefdoms. Figure out away to outflank 'em, render the outrageous/ludicrous in the eyes of the world. You want people "hearts-&-minds" to be on the same page as you are (whatever the fuck that may be...), then please, by all means, START YOUR OWN BLOG! Really, no-fucking-kidding!! There are several offerings to do so free! And I'll be happy to visit occasionally, and we can have a good row! (WINK)

But people tend to stay in their "sheeple" comfort zones, don't forget that. Bad? Well, yeah, but whaddya gonna do? Offer 'em some exciting suggestions for political change, politico-economic change, but be careful: make sure to get it right--don't offer him a opportunity to jump from frying pan into in-fucking-ferno...OK?

Gotta go for now...

Rock on kids...

Posted by: MCP2012 at May 24, 2006 10:51 AM

"We need--desparately--a change of MEMES, Steven. Liberal-constitutionalist MEMES. Without a change in the culture, the mind-set, most countries cannot be liberal republics. And yet, and here's the wonderful thing, if one **can** get a liberal-constitutionalist (meta)political framework established, then it can, if properly instantiated, with proper power-diffusing safeguards, be self-sustaining and even what amounts to self-replicating or self-propagating within a region. You don't get community, Steven, you don't get "goodwill-among-men", you don't get generosity, compassion, empathy, etc. within a social/political context of oppression, top-down micro-management (even if more-or-less benign, which it rarely is all that much anyway), and hierarchical politics. People need stability and security, otherwise it's dog-eat-dog.

Which is why, although I'm otherwise a pretty thorough-going classic-liberal/individualist, I'm also sympathetic to at least discussing proposals to incentivize and make possible the broadening of capital-ownership, the diffusion of wealth/power, so as to provide a basis for socio-economic security in an age of cybernation & robotics which is very fast approaching. But civil liberties are paramount. Equality before the law and the Rule of Law are paramount."

MCP how is that different from the core - minus bullshit that I have been fundamentally saying?

You put up an article a few weeks ago about the power and potential for capitalism to bring some REALISTIC benefit to poorer nations/people compared to what they have now.

And this is something I agree with you on. In todays world its going to be the persuit of wealth that is going to harnass cheap labour, and bring increasing wealth.

I also dont see a problem with the views of the emergance of technology, its potential to alleviate issues, and the ever continuing march and drive and progress or atleast presence of this species.

But what I dont see/agree with is emergant technology to 'fix' or solve real fundamental issues, but this is where I agree that changing and dissemination of new ideas/mesmes CAN AND WILL make the difference. Or we are damned, now and in any possibly future you can ever imagine.

Let me unrealistic, dreamy, childish for a minute and enjoy a minute of futile pointless philosophising.

If in a thousand years our planet is still a collection of split/seperated/fractured communities persuing the same desires, but not enjoying or even expecting the same levels of return, or infrastructure, or laws, or rights, or equality as can be found elsewhere, then we will have failed.

Failed, imo, not only to PROVIDE for, but to TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, all around us.

It is not likely to ever unite our species under a single religious/political ideaology, but it is more likely that we can unite this planet, our species, behind a single common point of view on what collectivly it means to be alive.

This sounds like utter bullshit, but think of this SINGLE MEME.

A better future.

This is the common thread running through every single person today, whether it is a better future for them or their kids, or people in general.

And I can see no better way to harnass this collective desire and power towards 'a better future', than to start slowly breaking down barriers between people, whatever they may be, and slowly start to harnass all the potential that the human race, the Earth, and existance itself provides.

Now I dont have a god damned clue how this is done in its entirety, but I can, and do, think on how it can be initiated/continued/applied to today, to us, to me, and to the whole general 'thing' that is people thinking on what I childishly call the ultimate, meaning great powerful meaningful issues.

We can diseminate ideas of striving towards AIMING for similar goals.

I dont know what the goals can be, equality perhaps, and tbh always and fundamentally, but other more relaistic and less ideaological goals would have to be I guess *somehow* providing fundamental basics to ALL people through the mechanisms of the systems of the world.

Yes technology will absolutely and definatly assist us in this particular endeavour, but there exists in my mind then stark possibility, as has always existed, that it will present itself in reality as the machinery by which some seek to pull ever further ahead, and that others simply cant avoid benefitting from.

This is not a great and glorious future, this is today + tech.

And aside from death, inequality presents many other situations of extreme importance, not least a well dried fuse and tinder box for the eruption of every single difference that can possibly ever exist.

If we are inequal in mind, thats just to be expected from individuals, but these differences are so easy to turn into physical and severe issues, when physical differences are exploited, or even present.

But if we can turn peoples minds towards what they can dream of, and let them know that if we are looking and aiming for these dreams they can be achieved, then that is the direction, albeit slowly and unguidedly, we are going to go.

But if there is no attemot whatsoever, even if those attempts are by ignorant scoiopaths like me, to somehow attempt to embrace the ideaological and almost realistic impossible, then people are going to view it as all complete and utter bullshit.

Im not talking fundamental systems here, im talking about peoples acceptance of life with the view to much much greater things like simple dreams. This is the cornerstone and catalyst of our real and true future, and not some delluded pretension that it exists now, but the continual embracement of dreams as the core to an individuals being, and the impact that is going to have on the world, even if those dreams are impossible as far as some would say.

What fundamental dreams do we have? Well for one immortality, the end to suffering, and potentially barring some kind of (must be tolerated by all in mind but not action) radical religious beleif, tolerance and acceptance of others worth and place and presence. These lead in a reverse kind of way towards equality and 'mobocracy justice' which in our flawed ways we see and undersand was when we first stood on two legs and is now the fairest system of justice we have.

If our aim and goal in life is a better future, once we are gone, then our world is going to fundamentally change. This is my view.

Now this is claptrap, but this vision could already be implimented in ways that are going to benefit some people who live today, and eventually IMO this view could benefit all people while they live and afterwards.

Some views, especially some presented here for example, point the way to all everyone could ever dream of, including potentially immortal and Godlike existance for those already dead.

But we are not going to get there if we dont do it, if we pull ourselves apart, if we kill each other, if we dont spot things because we are busy counting money, or watching TV and scratching.

If its easier than people like me imagine, and we work so much harder towards it, its going to occur so much sooner.

Its not going to occcur while the fundamental view points and systems of today exist. Once they no longer exist, they can be replaced by those kinds of veiwpoints and systems ever increasingly more condusive to these views of ultimatly ever having what we could ever possibly dream of.

We have to change todays world into the world of our dreams.

If this means embracing capitalism for the forseeable future, then hey! im the goddamned staunchest supporter, or atleast equal, imo ;) to other supporters.

If it means grinding onwards with what we have, and I have little to no knowledge of the actual mechanisations behinds todays fundamental systems, then thats what it means.

But it also means working TOWARDS realistically our dreams. Not just employing capitalism because its going to improve some African Nations way of life, but because its ultimatly going to ensure that they and everyone else is able to contribute entireally and completely like all others towards the drive and strive and the determination towards the ultimate goals.

Now yeah, you have been here, and have long since gone past this kind of thinking, but look.

It means at the root and core that we need to impliment basic ideals in our world.

We need to impliment a world that is a single operating entity providing for and harnassing all and every individual.

We need to look after ourselves and our world as a single entity, not because it looks good, or will provide green forests, or will stop kamikaze suicide nuts. but because its going to provide the people of the world with basic proof that towards our dreams is where we are heading.

I dont know how we do this. So im just as much a complete, drivel spouting farce as anyone else.

But there is ONE way I am aware of. Atleast one, realistic actual way of eventually implimenting these goals.

And that is to make sure these dreams never die, and are spread, and live on for as long as people live on.

So while I spout philosophical childish unrealistic nonesense, its because I want to make sure no one ever forgets it, that those people who have thought this way and given up have the fire rekindled, that people who dont think this way sit up and take notice.

I know little, which is both a waste and its own way perhaps a blessing. Or maybe thats all just bullshit, but if you can kid yourself and at the same time do all you can towards all dreams, then thats something.

Or maybe thats the only thing that isnt nothing?

Which is perhaps the only point to any of us, that the comfort we find in this life is the persued comfort of all other people, present and future.

Our dreams may not be even remotely applicable to the world of today, but they are the only things that unite us in the world of today, and the only thing we can persue to actually make them come true.

MCP I want the world to become a single entity because I think it will ultimatly benefit everyone that has yet to live more so than any kind of fractured world can benefit any number of people, and I also beleive it is the way to best address problems that will ever come up for our species, whether on this planet or on all planets, or as non-corporeal masters of physical existance, and I think its one of the few common grounds we as a species can work on to change this world, to devote our focus away from things which tear us apart and cause us problems and work towards things which unite us and provide us with solutions.

But I have said what little I can meekly think of just now to persue this view, and I dont trully know how to do anything more than to spread ideas and develop my own, and be a voice speaking, shouting, crying out for this.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 24, 2006 04:52 PM

Hello everyone.

I don't know about you lot but I have no f'ing idea what the hell is going on here. That is, like many 'Good Ideas' (and 'Best Intentions') the actuality of The Internet too-often seems one of endless white (male geek) noise.

Let's put it this way, if the Medium is really Tedium then the message is merely more worthless electronic edutainment to blind and confuse (or as they say here in dreary old Endland, 'jerking off into your own stale wind.') Post another wired & tired rant online, get it off your chest, feel like you've made an important contribution to the great Cultural whatever. Before flipping over to the next electronic blipvert.

A lot of things feel so.. arbitrary, you know?

(Suddenly sings): "One hundred zillion dead websites, looking for a home.."

Sure there's at least \some\ Meaning in i.t all somewhere - but I wonder why I'm still not convinced.. Perhaps I should go deep-read Neuromancer again or upgrade my drivers or something

I also like the idea of Futurehi.net but.. a lot of it sounds suspiciously like 'just gloss over the underlying problem of Human Consciousness - and just take more drugs and act all postmodern new age and techno-hip', you know, that old fallacy of McKenna.. (like remember in the Trialogues, when Sheldrake the psychic monkey says to Terence that he sounds like a marketing manager for global hypercapitali$m.)

Hmm. Anyhow. Thanks for reading this far. I think I'll go make myself a nice cup of green tea. L8ers.

Buddha bless ya
See you all on the Other Side (ie. this one)

Doc Orloff

Posted by: dr. orloff at May 24, 2006 05:30 PM

Eventhorizon, you said:

"...A better future.

This is the common thread running through every single person today, whether it is a better future for them or their kids, or people in general..."

This might be the great problem:
There can never be 'a better future' because the future does just not exist!

In the eternal now and here, ideas of the future occur...

There might however be a possibility for a 'better now'!

Anyway, let's enjoy our illusory time