Fascinating. I wonder what advantage these fishes gain by having these chemicals in their genetic makeup? Do they have natural predators, and if so, do these predators suffer after ingesting said fish?

I suppose this could start a whole new conspiracy theory regarding the *true* origin of the icthys symbol as used by the Pythagorean movement as well as Christianity?

And what about Oannes? .... *Food* for thought (pun intended ;) )

Posted by: Upwinger at April 22, 2006 05:10 PM

Maybe being tripped out all the time helps them deal with the smell of their fishy relatives?

Not all biology/genetics is necessarilly beneficial, this excess or presence could be something redundant, left over from millions of years ago, or perhaps some weird feature that has evolved that has little use.

I am unsure what benefit it could be, as a poison it seems unlikely? The hallucinogenic part is probably highly non-toxic? Therefore other chemicals would themselves have to be the poison?

I have read about DMT and dreams and its presence in human brains, so perhaps its just overproduced in these fish through some quirk of evolution.

Posted by: eventhorizen at April 23, 2006 10:02 AM

the interesting thing here, for me, is that, before reading the article I watched this film-

http://www.sonyclassics.com/dreamfish/main.html

'Dream with the Fishes' by Finn Taylor, a film about living life on the edge, as though there were no tomorrow...

; )

Posted by: graffitirun at April 25, 2006 03:07 PM

¨Dream Phishes¨

Posted by: jiva at April 26, 2006 09:07 AM

it is far from unusual for a species to produce compounds of no apparrent benefit to the organism. These compounds are referred to a "secondary compounds" and are quite prevalent throughout many taxa. Some species of fungus, for example haave been shown to produce in excess of 100 unique secondary compounds in response to varying environmental conditions.

The magic in this as I see it, is how some of these seemingly useless compounds generate profound psychological responses in species to which the producer of the compound has no established ecological relationship.

To me this further suggests a sentient evolutionary force of some sort....

Posted by: flocking at April 26, 2006 09:02 PM

No, this fish is not normally hallucinogenic. Read closer. This fish ingested something that made it so

Posted by: Jeoshua at April 28, 2006 11:24 AM

"The magic in this as I see it, is how some of these seemingly useless compounds generate profound psychological responses in species to which the producer of the compound has no established ecological relationship. To me this further suggests a sentient evolutionary force of some sort...."

I think thats a bit of an extreme assumption to make. Its also well known for example that virus and bacteria that were common and trivial nuisances to one group of peoples wreaked devestating and widespread death upon another group of people whom came into contact with it.

You basiclly take the fact that foreign or alien chemicals interfering with brain chemistry in powerful ways as proof of a sentient evolutionary force. This to me doesnt seem like a very strong chain of logic, infact it has a strong 'feel' of illogic, and the attempt to form links between a point of view and observed events and facts, rather than establishing a point of view based upon the logical analysis of those events and facts.

Infact, when you consider that viral agents having extreme effects on people lacking immunity, and these chemicals having a psychoactive effect on people without regular contact, it appears to me that the evidence for evolution depending on enviroment is great.

Im not saying its impossible or untrue, im saying that the evidence presented points more towards animals coping better with these substances living longer and producing more offspring which also live longer, rather than sentience directing evolution.

The only place currently, in my opinion, where the evidence for sentience is strong (present) is the formation of initial DNA and the first cells of life (as well as the formation/presence/ability of existance itself). The random formation of a self replicating DNA chain, that actually survives, to live for 4 billion years is highly unlikely, bordering on the realistically impossible. But to be honest and fair, its not technically impossible to occur in a Universe unguided by sentience. Thus one can only consider the possibilities, random spontaneous existance, or sentient guided evolution, but make no claims as to which is correct, based only upon these factors. If you wish to pull other considerations such as the presence of existance and the meta structure of reality and beyond into this as further proof or lack thereof, thats your perogative.

As to the topic itself, im not sure what to say, apart from maybe 'yay' at another source of unregulated (banned) hallucinogens, if thats what it is. Wont be long before some democracy or another decides to deny us this choice (irony!!!) though.

Posted by: eventhorizen at April 30, 2006 04:26 PM

Well, a fish whose metabolism produces a molecule that happens to fit the sockets of a human brain with visionary elan is no more (or less) miraculous than a mushroom whose metabolism is equally talented. Face it, the Intelligent Design crowd got it right. What they of course fail to understand is that the Bible is a cult mythology. Has nothing to do with natural history, or the intent of the Designer. More (and More) at www.starlarvae.org and http://starlarvae.blogspot.com

Posted by: Heresiarch at April 30, 2006 07:14 PM

Intelligent Design crowd got it right? You understand ofcourse both the size of molecules, the scope the planet Earth, and the time these molecules have been given to form?

Would you say AIDS is proof of intelligent design? Influenza? Depression?

To be honest the evidence for design within our Universe is fairly lame. That a Designer would design a planet Earth, and then design a creature such as us to tear it apart, is frankly worrying. Behold, the gleaming jewel of existance, and behold the ravenous scouring plague of that jewel.

Face it, you cant understand any other way for these complexities to exist, so you look to intelligent design. I could understand, and even respect your views, if you appealed to something that is currently and has always been a immense puzzle, paradoxical and illogical as far as scientific method and theory goes, such as the meta scale of existance and its ability to be.

But you dont, you point to chemical interactions with the human brain.

If you 'believe' so fervently in an intelligent designer, tell me how you justify its/his presence.

As for the bible being cult mythology, its actually a rather accurate historical text, as well as being as philosophically sound as much later works of philosophy, recorded in the ongoing religious scriptures of many incarnations of a people. Thats not to say its entireally true.. but to dismiss it as cult mythology without having the integrity, decency, or maturity to critique it in an appropriate manner is further proof in my mind of the closed mindset of many people who believe first then tailor their beliefs to fit things they can no longer discredit.

Plato wrote 'the highest form of love is the search for philosophical truth', in other words the ongoing quest for truth is the highest form of the love of beauty.

If there was a designer, one whom designed existance and creatures capable of feeling and expressing love and capable of thought, then it would be his greatest work to design a realm that provided infinate scope for the search of philosophical truth. For then he would have a created a realm without boundaries, in the almightiest and truest and greatest of ways.

Face it, the Intelligent Design crowd talk alot of nonesense, and the crowd of seekers are hard at work seeking true comprehension of the scale and implication and immensity of all that is around us, and what that can mean.

Chemistry as proof of intelligent design, what a joke. Try, as Rev Tom once put it 'infinate ontilogical depth' and the ability to seek philosophical truth as proof of intelligent design.

But I guess many of that 'crowd' are to busy flaming to actually be devoting their minds to the issue.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 1, 2006 06:57 AM

Hey eventhorizen,
First of all, thank you for your comments...i got a bit liberal with my wording, so I'm gald you were there to prevent my comment form slipping into the abyss of new-age.

First of all, I had no intention of offering a logical argument correlating the compounds and a sentient evolutionary force. It was merely an intuition. Logic has brought the human race a long way...but it does have glaring limits...so it's nice to dream every once in a while.

Secondly, I feel we have different notions regarding the form a sentient evolutionary force would take, which has generated some of the discrepency in our argument. We should discuss this at some point....but it is a long discussion that I don't feel like gettign into here.

The point is, as you pointed out with your DNA example, when you actually run the algorithms, the universe has simply not been around long enough to have produced the current complexity by means of chance. There are numerous examples using many different spatial and temporal scales.

This in itself suggests that there is something else driving the manifestation of the kosmos that is not accounted for by physics as it is explained today.

This is bewildering enough at the level of the physiosphere, but becomes infinitely more complex as the biosphere, noosphere and higher realms of existence are considered (the higher realms dependent on your view).

What I was trying to express is that when these compounds, existing in the physiosphere and generated by the biosphere, have such gravity in the noosphere it is difficult to explain using anything other than mystical terminology. In my view, the depth of consciousness extents beyond the noosphere. Because these compounds appear to invoke mystical experience, they also have a gravity in the higher reaches of consciousness. This is the part that really invokes awe for me.

On a different note, I would like to contribute to your biblical discussion. I agree 100% that the Bible is
" a rather accurate historical text, as well as being as philosophically sound as much later works of philosophy"
in addition to being a beautiful mystical text reaching to the highest levels of spiritual existence.

However, the fact is, the vast majority Christians (I would estimate 99.99%) are operating from a mythological center of gravity and very much interpret and use the Bible in that context.

How the contemplative side of Christianity was deemphasized to such a large degree is up for discussion. The reintegration of contemplation in Christianity is probably the single most significant thing that could happen for the evolution of spirt, atleast as far as this planet's contribution is concerned.

Posted by: flocking at May 1, 2006 10:20 AM

"First of all, I had no intention of offering a logical argument correlating the compounds and a sentient evolutionary force. It was merely an intuition. Logic has brought the human race a long way...but it does have glaring limits...so it's nice to dream every once in a while."

To be honest, the limits logic has as far as I am aware or concerned is in that which it cannot answer. Very much of what appears 'illogical' in day to day is infact extraordinarilly complex, and there is an inherant randomness inbedded in reality as well. I am not currently convinced logic is a flawed tool, neither am I convinced logic is a tool which can unlock all answers a questioner may have.

Also lets be fair, and say that there is no real reason to say that a sentient evolutinary force cannot be a logical entity, apart from the misgivings and opposition or views within individual minds.

Logic is a tool we can use, its merits are up for debate.

"Secondly, I feel we have different notions regarding the form a sentient evolutionary force would take, which has generated some of the discrepency in our argument."

Perhaps, but at the basic level it is a 'sentient evolutionary force', and going with that 'view' all we can trully say about it is that it is a sentient force. This isnt the time and place to discuss 'its shape' for lack of better words, you are right.

"The point is, as you pointed out with your DNA example, when you actually run the algorithms, the universe has simply not been around long enough to have produced the current complexity by means of chance. There are numerous examples using many different spatial and temporal scales."

The problem with chance though is the very thing it is. All the algorithms ever run may fail to produce anything approaching life, and yet that does not make it impossible. I agree that is staggeringly unlikely, however one cannot discount that which IS possible, and it is possible. Chance may be the gloves worn by 'God' to hide his fingerprints, this is something else that cannot be discounted, atleast not in my mind at my current level of understanding of things. It comes down to whether or not a sentient force had a 'hand' in the evolution of life or not, and I personally view the 'evidence' as being inconclusive.

"This in itself suggests that there is something else driving the manifestation of the kosmos that is not accounted for by physics as it is explained today."

I would say it suggests the possibility of alternative 'mechanisms', there may be plausible answers beyond 'sentient evolutionary force' or 'random chance' we are not aware of, and we should look for them.

"his is bewildering enough at the level of the physiosphere, but becomes infinitely more complex as the biosphere, noosphere and higher realms of existence are considered (the higher realms dependent on your view).

What I was trying to express is that when these compounds, existing in the physiosphere and generated by the biosphere, have such gravity in the noosphere it is difficult to explain using anything other than mystical terminology."

As I have said before I myself prefer to be on the fence and continue looking/thinking, however let me attempt to form a counter arguement to your claim.

The emergance of intelligence forces the Universe to react to a new order or level of existance, by 'creating' 'producing' or 'reacting' further 'realms' or perhaps dimensions within itself. This entire new level and dimension of existance and reactivity is still tightly and fundamentally bound and apart of every other aspect of existance, and as such physical interactions produce effects, ripples, splashes in the realm of the mental or the conscious. The effect of these ripples and splashes etc, these pertubations I guess is the correct word, depends entireally upon their interaction with complex tangles of 'physical' and 'mental' that are themselves self aware, otherwise their 'waves' or tracks dissipate and flow into the relative calmness of psychological/conscious space.

What I have written seems to me to be a plausible arguement that can be 'added' to the list of contemplatable/discussable arguements on this topic. Unless it is argued to be incorrect and wrong.

I have no interest in putting forward entire philosophies on all things, because to be frank I have none, my only desire is to explore possibilities and to 'work on' them suffiecently to hopefully improve my own understanding. With this in mind I do not discount your view, merely add a possible alternative arguement to the 'pot'.

"How the contemplative side of Christianity was deemphasized to such a large degree is up for discussion. The reintegration of contemplation in Christianity is probably the single most significant thing that could happen for the evolution of spirt, atleast as far as this planet's contribution is concerned."

Absolutely. My own view is that at its core, whether the motives were totally religious or not, the entire story of Christ is immensly philosophical. One can only really say that the Bible is a book that can be learned from. That does indeed contain wisdom.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 1, 2006 02:43 PM

hey eventhorizen,
thanks again for the comments, i'm really enjoying this dialogue.

I do not have a lot of time right now to further the discussion, but I wanted to get something out real quick.

Where logic starts to lose its footing is when multiple perspectives and contexts enter the discussion.

Cultures all over the world adopted rational structures around the time of the enlightenment. Yet, somehow these different cultures derived different conclusions to the same questions. How can this be?

This is nothing new that I present, this is essentially the postmodern position that manifested in the late 20th century (and still is manifesting I suppose).

One quick example. To the CEO of Exxon Mobil, there is nothing more logical then drilling for oil in the Alaskan Wildlife Reserve. Lots of money to be made, more jobs, more oil for the american consumer....all logical factors supporting the drilling.

However, as we know, there is considerable opposition to the drilling. Are the opponents being illogical? No, they are simply being logical within a value structure that emphasizes preservation of natural life support systems, compassion for other species, etc.

Posted by: flocking at May 1, 2006 09:08 PM

Yes good example, but let me add that the logic employed by both parties only takes into account their own personal motivations, logic relevant to their internal views.

One could claim that the most logical use for that oil, should it be drilled, would be to further safeguard and preserve the enviroment and habitat of that region. Or that it is valid to bring a brief period of turmoil to one robust habitat, in order for example to use the wealth generated to transform and reconstruct a habitat that has been shattered.

All things considered, is that not the most logical view to hold? depending ofcourse upon the balance between the disturbance by drilling and the benefit by vast wealth. Infact its hard to apply logic to this scenario in any form, because it deals specifically with the actions and motivations of people who deep down are not driven by logic but by desire.

As a bit of a sidetrack, I have been toying with the idea of 'redistribution of planetary wealth' for a number of years now. It seems somewhat rediculous to me that we currently have for the first time ever the ability to transport VAST volumnes, masses and quantities, across VAST distances, and at extremelly high speeds, yet do nothing of actually relevance or meaning with it, in general. I have been thinking that untill a permenant and total replacement to fossil fuels is found, this represents our only actual chance thus far to, on a large and fundamental scale, to meaningfully attempt basic terraforming of our own planet. It would make sense to me, personally, to look at our current situation as a temporary 'jackpot' scenario in terms of power and scientific knowledge, and to use this time and power/knowledge/wealth to create a much more stable and human friendly series of habitats and systems and even in some ways societies, so that when our 'jackpot' winnings slowly dissipate and we await the next jackpot, we do not curse our own lack of foresight to save something away for a rainy day in terms of basic, non large scale, subtle terraforming. Im not sure how individuals feel about this, as it is still intrusive management and alteration of enviroment by humans, but look at it this way. If the pyramids have stood for five thousand years, then it might have been/be possible over say a period of a century or so, to construct suez canal/hoover damn type scenarios of increased ability to survive and stand, put these in places of immense aridity, and moniter them over the course of a long period of time to see if the ability exists among humans to create artificial Nile rivers for example in places that are totally hostile to most forms of life. Should these have immense negative impacts, we could alter or destroy them, and learn from our mistakes. If they succeed then there are large areas of our planet that this kind of terraforming could significantly improve. Time would tell if our actions were beneficial or detrimental. This is probably, as usual, an over simplistic view of the difficulty and implications of such a task, but to be fair we do not really even attempt to think in such ways. We terraform land to benefit some people now, without terraforming land to provide entire new habitats and open up large regions of our planet to abundant and flowering life over millenia or more.

To be honest, finding logical uses, or logical systems, in a species with personal desires and motivations is always going to a be a very tricky thing. It is logical to expect their personal motivations to have some bearing on their thinking. Its not logical to expect everyone to think and act logically.

We are not a logical species by nature, and like you pointed out, very much of our world is highly illogical and subject to individual desires. It may not be possible to follow a purely logical path for a being such as humanity, but does this mean logic itself is not a sound system?

A lever may break if misused or used incorrectly, but it can still lift heavy loads.

Logic has its limits, but if those limits only appear in the context of human/animal action, human/animal thinking, then perhaps that is proof of logics soundness and solidness, as it fails only when applied to creatures who have motivations for their actions.

However if you return to the CEO, it could be said that it is logical for the CEO to think this way, that it is ok to drill Alaska to line his own pockets. After all if he didnt think this way he wouldnt be CEO, and his mental, internal, and self beleif, control, awareness and respect has been a long time forming and will contain the seeds and roots of his current personality and framework of mind.

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Posted by: Sniper at May 3, 2006 07:10 PM

AIDS was intelligently designed by the US government and administered to Gays and Blacks in New York and San Franscisco in a "syphillis vaccination" during the 1980's in an effort to rid the country of "undesirables." The Nazis never really went away they just came to the Land of the Free where they were quickly and secretly absorbed into the political apparatus. They've finally completely resurfaced in recent years. Nobody seems to have noticed except "conspiracy freaks."

Posted by: Bubba Gump at May 4, 2006 11:56 AM

AIDS was intelligently designed by the US government and administered to Gays and Blacks in New York and San Franscisco in a "syphillis vaccination" during the 1980's in an effort to rid the country of "undesirables." The Nazis never really went away they just came to the Land of the Free where they were quickly and secretly absorbed into the political apparatus. They've finally completely resurfaced in recent years. Nobody seems to have noticed except "conspiracy freaks."

Posted by: G.ump B.ubba at May 4, 2006 11:57 AM

Auschwitz at its peak had an extermination capacity of close to 4000 people in a 24 hour period.

Prisoners were transported along a purpose built railway line that lead directly to a 'sorting avenue'. Prisoners were marched out of the cattle trucks, and ordered into a line. These prisoners were then sorted on sight into two groups. One group was lead away, deloused and stripped and sent to work as slave labour in one of the largest concentration camps. The other group, the elderly, women with children, and children, were lead away to custom designed shower blocks, and gassed to death, then fed into industrial sized crematoria, 15 units of 2 furnaces each.

Aids is transported sexually or via the blood. Male homosexual intercourse can be rough, lead to tearing of protection rather easilly, and one assumes homosexual intercourse in the preceding decades was, for younger men, an event of powerful lust, emotionally charged, and psychologically eventful in certain cases. These factors, in my mind, combine to give a certain level of explanation for the high rate of sexually transmitted disease.
'Blacks' in New York, or even the world in general, are known to be one of the most poverty stricken groups of people regardless of where they live. Poverty has a tendency to lead to crime, social disorder, and a general pack/gang/antiestablishment mentality. This combined with low self esteem, low income, and a bleak outlook on the future, combines in my mind to explain the high level of drug usage, and lack of extreme and explicit care taken while using drugs.

To compare this to the events of the second world war, and the intentions of the Nazi state, is a sign of complete and ultimate disrespect, a lack of fundamental integrity and understanding, even compassion, and is quiet frankly, a sickening and vile set of words.

I suggest you read up on both Hitler and the Nazi states intentions and ideals. There was and is a whole lot more to their motivations than simple ethnic cleansing and extermination of both the Jewish Community and Africans living outside of Africa.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

I suggest your introduction to History starts here, one of the most powerful books illustrating the combination of insight, philosophy, brutal and grim determination, historical knowledge, and fundamentally flawed and psychotic beliefs and points of view.

Read it, understand why this man is compared to Alexander the 'Great/two Horned One', understand how he managed to bring about the greatest conflict this species and planet has ever seen.
Understand the dangers of a sweeping vision for the human race founded on flawed, ignorant, and personal principles. Understand the dangers of not analysing the selfs every motivation and every conclusion, continuously. This book is a lesson to all who would learn. This man was both close enough, and far enough at the same time, from 'something' as to be an individual and a lesson who will never be forgotton, as long as this species maintains an iota of intelligence and memory.

Something the post preceding mine lacks in startling volumnes.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 4, 2006 03:26 PM

I get a mild psychedelic high from spirulina. Once I took a couple spirulina pills and went to the beach. A bit later I was thinking to myself, wow it's so beautiful down here at the beach, I should come down here more often. Then I drove to downtown LA and was walking around and thought to myself "wow it's incredibly beautiful around here, I should spend more time here" and then I realized that I had thought the same thing about the beach. Wait a minute, did I take something psychoactive? Oh yeah, spirulina.

I've experienced these effects several times.

I've always wondered what compound caused this effect.

Posted by: Dlight at May 5, 2006 04:00 PM

Is that because you wish to see the chin dropping, awe inspiring, mouth watering, heart stopping, speech stealing beauty in everything you see?

You need drugs?

Does it even matter?

Lets not forget that the psychoactive is a tool, A tool above and beyond any we know of. I was 8 when I saw my fathers friend lose a thumb to a chainsaw.

I wonder, where is your mind?

The sun is shining, the grass is green, oh my God cant I lie here forever. The answer is no. Kid thyself not.

The highest form of the love of beauty is the ongoing search for philosophical truth. The people of ancient Athens seem far and away our superiors when it comes to contemplating the physical, spritual, and existance itself. Wow, is there anyone from the past who is not our superiors today? In my opinion, for what its worth, HAHA, no.

I believe the post prior to mine contains within it all the arguement regarding pronoia or paranoia one could ever find rising within ones breast, mind, soul, being.

And look! I can pull a subject off topic, without ever changing the subject matter.

I sigh, I have been here One year, and little has changed.

FutureHi where is your passion? That question makes me laugh.

Silence!!

Indeed.

Shhhh,.,.,.,. your toke, the pretty patterns! discuss them.
No.

Hear me roar.

Posted by: eventhorizen at May 5, 2006 06:36 PM

ok horizen,
I wasn't going to respond to our previous dialogue, but now seeing your further posts I have been inclined to do so.

First, starting with our discussion:

in response to my example you said:

"Yes good example, but let me add that the logic employed by both parties only takes into account their own personal motivations, logic relevant to their internal views."

that is quite my point, logic is relative to the context in which it is being employed. the universe is nothing if not an infinite regression of internested contexts within contexts. There is no ultimate conext for which a system of logic can be considered absolute.

even the traditional philosophic example of mathematics isn't exempt from this....1+1=2 is sound logic within the context of the rational structure the human race has implemented. We cannot (I cannot anyway) concieve of a rational structure thaw would produce a different answer, but that does not mean it does not exist

next... I very much admire the creative thinking you have employed in your terraforming theory. This planet is facing a seemingly insurmountable environmental crises, and we are in need of desperate solutions.

That being said...ask any ecologist...the mass terraforming you have described is a sure fire recipe for rapid ecosystem failure

the ecosystems, landscapes, biomes that we inhabit are such unfathomably complex systems...even minor perturbances disrupt ecological balances. Just look at Dutch elm disease. All it took was a few microscopic spores of a fungus, largely benign in its native Netherlands, and within 20 years or so almost all the Elm trees of the midwest and their associated ecostsyems were destroyed.

Mass alteration and moving of land as you have described would dirsupt nutrient cycles, hydrologic cycles, introduce countless invasive species, reduce bioremediation.....this list could go on for pages

OK, now onto your reply to Dlihgt:

you obviously have committed to seeking philosophical truth through logic and metaphysics

I respect this...I tend to do the same

BUT...it is hardly the only way to seek philosophical truth...not to mention express divine love and truth or embody a spiritual practice

As I see it, what Dlight has described is a form of mysticism...a very valid and powerful means of seeking philosophical truth

Directly and brutally seeing, feeling, tasting, experiencing this manifest world, this gorgeous manifestation of spirit... is a form of Gnosis....an excellent means of pursuing philosophical truth

In my experience...sometimes an instantaneuos flash of divine beauty while riding your bicycle or cooking dinner, etc. can bestow upon you infinitely more philosophical truth that you can attain from hours of chin in palm metaphysical brainstorming

contexts within contexts within contexts.....

Posted by: flocking at May 5, 2006 09:43 PM

"the universe is nothing if not an infinite regression of internested contexts within contexts."

So you claim.

"There is no ultimate conext for which a system of logic can be considered absolute."

Untill we admit and accept the self for what it is.

"even the traditional philosophic example of mathematics isn't exempt from this....1+1=2 is sound logic within the context of the rational structure the human race has implemented. We cannot (I cannot anyway) concieve of a rational structure thaw would produce a different answer, but that does not mean it does not exist"

Rational, logical thinking.

"That being said...ask any ecologist...the mass terraforming you have described is a sure fire recipe for rapid ecosystem failure"

How can they be sure?

"Mass alteration and moving of land as you have described would dirsupt nutrient cycles, hydrologic cycles, introduce countless invasive species, reduce bioremediation.....this list could go on for pages"

We do it anyway, for the wealth of those who die soon.

"In my experience...sometimes an instantaneuos flash of divine beauty while riding your bicycle or cooking dinner, etc. can bestow upon you infinitely more philosophical truth that you can attain from hours of chin in palm metaphysical brainstorming"

They are one and the same.

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