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April 14, 2006
The Point-I and the Space-I
(An excerpt from Franklin Merrell-Wolff’s time-tested classic, “Pathways Through to Space.”)
A new way of approaching the subject of Nirvana has come to my mind which may be helpful in clarifying certain difficulties relative to the nature of this State. The usual idea of Nirvana seems to be that It is a sort of blissful State produced by an extinguishing of life through the elimination of the will-to-live and the desire for enjoyment. Since ordinarily men find themselves unable to conceive of consciousness unrelated to personality and the various cravings associated with sentient life, Nirvana appears to be something like an absolute nonexistence or an annihilation in the full sense of the word. If, on the other hand, it is granted that Nirvana is some sort of State of Consciousness, it is often thought of as something undesirable.
There is much misconception in all this. Anyone who has ever touched even the hem of Nirvanic Consciousness would not regard It as an undesirable State and most certainly would Know that It did not imply the cessation of Consciousness, although It is a kind of consciousness quite different anything to be found within the relative field. Now the difficulty seems to me to grow out of a misunderstanding of what is meant when we say 'I,' and I believe I can say something that will make this matter clearer.
Approached from the usual standpoint of relative consciousness, the T seems to be something like a point. This 'point' in one man is different from the T in another man. One T can have interests that are incompatible with the interests of another 'I,' and the result is conflict. Further, the purpose of life seems to center around the attainment of enjoyment by the particular I-point which a given individual seems to be.
It is true that in one sense the T is a point, and the first objective of the discriminative practice is the isolation of this point from all the material filling of relative consciousness, and then restricting self-identity to this point. For my own part, I finally applied this technique with success. But, almost immediately, at the moment of success, a very significant change in the meaning of the T began to develop. A process of 'spreading out' began that culminated in a kind of spatial self-identity. I found that the T had come to mean Space instead of a point. It was a Space that extended everywhere that my consciousness might happen to move. I found nowhere anything beyond Me, save that at the highest stage both T and Divinity blended in Being. But all of this process involved both an intensifying and broadening of Consciousness, and most emphatically not a narrowing or 'pinching out' of it.
For our present purposes, we may leave aside the State of Being, where both the subject and the object disappear. There remains, then, an 'I' in two senses, which we may call the point-I and the Space-I. There is enough in this to clarify the fundamental problem of Nirvana, taken in the simpler sense.
As a matter of formal properties alone, it should be clear at once that life-values take on very different forms when viewed respectively from the perspectives of the point-I und the Space-I. The point-I involves discreteness, separateness, difference, etc., and, as a consequence there are possible attainments and failures to attain. This gives a certain meaning to desire-led action, resulting in all the features so common in ordinary life. In contrast, the Space-I is continuous, not-separate, not-different, etc. At least in a potential sense, the Space-I spreads over all possible consciousness-values. It thus stands above the need of experiencing (enjoyment). For the Space-I, consciousness-values are not attained by action, desire, etc., at least not in the common meaning of those terms. Consciousness may be focused anywhere within the given Space, and at once the corresponding consciousness-value is realized.
The important fact is that the Space-I does not have to strive in anything like a competitive sense to achieve any value. In a potential sense, the Space-I is all values at once; and by focusing, it makes any value whatsoever actual. Now, the Space-I includes all point-I’s. Hence, in principle, any individual who has realized his identity in the Space-I finds himself present in all point-I’s. This also gives to him, in principle, the resources of all point-I experiences, and not merely those of one isolated point-I. It is easily seen that in such a Space-I there is no room for, nor meaning in, the seperative affections of mere point-I consciousness.
Further, the Space-I is a State of infinite completeness, as compared with the consciousness of any point-I or the compound effect of any number of point-I's. Of course, such a state is one of Bliss immeasurably transcending anything possible for any point-I. It is the Space-I Consciousness which is Nirvana.
Posted by Upwinger at April 14, 2006 07:23 AMA few weeks ago I was standing in my kitchen lazilly looking out the window, when all of a sudden I got the impression that everything I was looking at, everything I was experiancing, was contructed totally by/for my own mind. It was as if the kitchen table and my window were somehow absolutely identical and the same and connected to my own mind, my thoughts and feelings and so on. As if the wood on the table was just an illusion of something hard that I could place my illusion of breakfast on, and these illusions were structures of my mind.
It was like my mind and existance, for whatever reasons, were creating an entire universe that only I could ever have access to.
I have never felt so utterly alone and completly terrified in all my life as those short moments as that feeling formed in my mind. The irony is that I am aware that that boredom induced, stone cold sober, random natural hallucination, contains a whole lot of truth within it.
If this sounds like I am embracing the viewpoints of this and the previous post, dont get too excited.
You might call this, the embracement of Space-I, or acknowledgement of it, Nirvana or Bliss. When it appears to me in a consciousness related form, it is utterly terrifying.
I am more than happy with the view that everything is a part of a single whole, but when it comes to analysing or thinking about the role my consciousness, 'I' play in this existance, I see/hear no other people in my mind. Even a glance to the eye is still an impassable barrier. My mind will never be in anothers body, there will never be another mind in mine. I do not share the intamacies of my own personal existance with another conscious being, there is only one voice in my head, I do not know what another mind thinks like.
Thus the existance dependant upon a working consciousness appears to me as the prison of all prisons. As a facade that cannot be escaped untill death, a facade created by and for my own mind. My own entire existance, created by own mind, devoid of anything other than that which my mind 'sees' for me.
If there was the faint echo of other voices, of subtle undercurrents of other minds, I would be reprieved, but these only appear to me when I use psychadelics.
Like I say, these moments terrify me.
But you claim that the I-Point becomes the I-Space. Then you become everything and everything becomes you. You would know me, my fear, and you would still know absolutely solitude.
It seems clear to me that the I-Point can contemplate and appreciate the I-Space, but not become it. Pardon the ignorance, but is not Nirvana a state of knowing? rather than being? Do you say the sun becomes the galaxy? Do you say one mind becomes all minds because that is what you want to believe?
"Hence, in principle, any individual who has realized his identity in the Space-I finds himself present in all point-I’s. "
I realise I live in Scotland. I do not find myself waking up in Siberia. This logic is flawed, utterly, hopelessly, pathetically.
I can say that outside the usage of psychadelics, which give access to weird and wonderful things which still could be utterly and entireally subjective, that the I-point becoming I-space makes no sense and is not relevant to any experiance I have had in my life, even the moment I came to see myself as being an aspect and part of everything in the most intimate way. Psychadelics may be the only way to trully achieve this I-Point (voice inside the head) becoming I-Space (the entirety of existance and all voices), but entireally in my opinion one would be utterly foolish to take any kind of 'personal experiance' as blanket undeniable truth of the nature of reality.
Outside of a psychedalic trip I struggle to see any supporting evidence for this kind of viewpoint, that I-Point becomes/can become I-space.
Isn't belief the mechanism used to create the "prison" that each of us lives? Is it not possible to undo the beliefs that we have created to unlock the "prison?" I, myself, have a belief that we are not able to occupy each other's mind in my present frame of reference. However, what if my beliefs are the wall that keeps me from doing so?
I have great difficulty in saying something is not possible just beacuse I am not able to quantify it in the here and now. Physical matter might just be a construct of our own minds to make the larger picture more simplistic until we are able to evolve. Agreed, there is no way to answer these questions posed in our current state. But I believe that asking these questions and having conversations like these are the best way to start the evolutionary process.
"I, myself, have a belief that we are not able to occupy each other's mind in my present frame of reference."
Once you occupy each others minds there is no 'I', 'we', 'me'. There is only one.
This is the point. Even if say I did manage to infiltrate and permeate the entire 'cosmic mind', of which outside of psychadelic trips there is no rational, logical evidence for. Does this mean it cant happen? By no means. What it means is that if this is true, then cosmic mind is the most lonely entity in all existance.
Time after time after time after time, FutureHi marches on with this incessant 'whiter than white' 'truth' of existance. Again there is no logical reason for this view than individual internal states. Existance is neither 'hell' nor 'heaven', and to look for these entities constantly is to miss the point. Existance is what it is.
GrnLntrn, the implications for a metacosmic mind of which we are manifestations, or 'loci' of, are the same implications for an individual mind trapped in its own reality.
Upwinger, why do you search and instill visions of the whitest purity of happiness and joy in everything you write? People are quick to analyse the contents of my posts how they see fit, and comment on how my mental state clouds my observation and perception of things. Yet when you do it they have only praise and love.
Why is this? Perhaps im being self obsessant, but I feel we can learn alot from analysing this particular 'naunce' of this community.
Does it come down to how the individual interpretations make each reader 'feel'? And thus influence their subsequent posts? Or is it deeper than that? Have certain societies and cultures become utterly terrified of the concept of pain?
Is the kind of large scale meta-psyche-reprogramming hinted at in the last topic already deeply underway amongst entire populations?
My apologies for leading this offtopic, my original concerns with the the point actually becoming (not empathising or imagining) the space still stand. The tone of the post however pulls me onto some unfinished thinking from previous topics.
It appears more and more clear there is a meta religion of spiritual based fear and pain denial being constructed and practiced, regardless of the detriment to scientific/spiritual/philosophical truth. That happiness is a useful tool and a glorious persuit is undeniable, but what is also undeniable is the consistantly displayed rejection and even blatant disregard and non consideration of immense implications, due to the fact they conflict with an internally programmed state.
This is reminiscient of the pre-renaissance period, the middle ages, when scientific discovery was strangled and repressed by the Catholic Church. In my time on this site I have only come across one person who has been the subject of others desires to be silenced or banned. For the sole reason of writing arguementative and inciteful topics on the subject matter, but from a point of view not acceptable to, as some put it, the community at large. While I have to take some responsiblity for often long, reptitive rants, one has to sit back and analyse these things in their appropriate context.
Claiming things like 'existance is a brilliant white entity of supreme divine light, spreading happiness and joy and eternal life, and individuals who make the efforts to deny misery and suffering and embrace this happiness and truth and joy are more balanced individuals conducive to saving our species or building a brighter greater future, while those who dont embrace this view threaten to drag us all into armaggedon' is ultimatly some of the most devisive, dangerous, polarising view points of a wholly religious nature, in the most despicable of religious natures, echoing what all religions have echoed throughout all of time.
And for what reason? Because you personally wish to believe it/do believe it/dont want to contemplate the reverse?
The Yin isnt you, the Yang isn't 'them', and viewing it in this nature is THE greatest danger. These things require each other to exist, to balance, for each others survival, and are present equally in all things everywhere.
It is time to start scraping that 'personal healing' off from the stuff you are diseminating to the external world. And sure, this is the biggest case of the pot calling the kettle black in FutureHi's history. But I CAN SEE IT.
Posted by: eventhorizen at April 14, 2006 05:38 PMFirst off, this entire post is an excerpt from Franklin Merrell-Wolff. Please dont confuse me with him! [Although I wouldnt mind too much *wink* ;) ]
Don't think he's arguing for the possibility that a particular point-I can relocate to another point-I, one mind to another body, etc. That is not what is being said at all. He's arguing that the Space-I is the sole inhabitant of all point-I's.
Its just like how the same "essence" of water is in all forms of H2O -- whether it be liquid, vapor, or solid, river, ocean or rainstorm. All the same "water-essence." If you consciously -- through meditation, psychedelics, whatever your chosen practice -- work your way back from your own particular incarnation in space and time to the Essence that does all this incarnating, regardless of space or time, you have reached the deepest Self of all personae.
Its like how all colors of the rainbow have their origin in white Light. Or how all radii of a circle become one in the center point. Or how all the many branches, leaves, roots, flowers and fruits are all aspects of one and the same tree.
"Upwinger, why do you search and instill visions of the whitest purity of happiness and joy in everything you write?"
-- Because that is the cosmology I wish to promote. I've had enough of pessimistic philosophies and world-views, and its obvious those pessimisms are not helping the world progress into a sustainable and ecumenical habitation for the human species. I posted this excerpt from Merrell-Wolff because I saw it as a contemporary retelling of some of the oldest wisdom in the world -- a quasi-mathematical understanding of the human species' true interconnectedness and wholeness.
All of us, myself included, need some healing in order to be whole, in order to reflect and manifest the essential Wholeness at the heart of us all. Surely none can deny this?
Namaste.
The point of confusion and the point of clarity is in the 'I'. The 'point-I' will be able to 'work all this out', but it doesn't get to 'go on the journey'.
Whilst attempting to discuss this subject which is, yes, GrnLntrn the .... the best way to start the evolutionary process :)...... we immediately start to use the word 'I' and then....
The actual 'I' (ego or point-I) will never go to space-I. It can't exist there and this is why the 'I' finds it hard to accept the concept of space-I.
And maybe this inablility of the 'I' to exist in space-I compounds the 'I's discomfort with accepting or understanding a place where it will not exist.
Belief is the intangible (isn't that so annoying how it can't be measured) bridge between these places. The omniverse operator. This message of belief is repeatedly repeated by people who have visited space-I - wouldn't they be the ones to listen too?
For people who like to be more scientific maybe belief/faith could be viewed as a vibration or harmonic, if it must be quantified, if it helps you to move/shatter your mind/ego towards space-I. There could even be different types of belief vibrations that provide the bridge - many roads to the same place. I think there might be :)
This post was not about travelling from I-point to I-point, which is of course, quite possible. It is about travelling from point-I to point-Space and then experiencing that space, not as a state detached from physical experience but experiencing space-I within the context of the manifested body - ecstacy, the body electric, the isness of the Is. It's a body experiential process not a mind process. It must be felt, not thought.
Posted by: thisisreallyhappening at April 14, 2006 06:09 PMUpwinger,
What a very pleasant suprise to find this post when coming to Future Hi this morning! I can say that I have achieved and maintained a space-I type of consciousness during some of my vivation meditations. However, as far as I can tell, the experience has never been one of High Indifference as described by Wolff and John Lilly. For although 'desire' was gone, and a sense of total completeness was there, there was also the feeling of total bliss, contentment and peace. It was a space of whiteness, joy and release. I can only imagine then this 'high indifference' that is *beyond* bliss, joy and contentment. When I first read John Lilly's writings on the subject I could not imagine why I would even want to transcend joy, until Lilly pointed out that once you experience this High Indifference, it is way "better" that joy, infinitely better in fact. In other words it is such a HIGH state of conciousness that is better than any words we can possibly conceive. Therefore to this day, Wolff remains my highest model of attainment.
I just want to say I Love All you guys ! You inspire US.
Posted by: jiro at April 15, 2006 12:16 PMPaul --- Glad to see you here, and glad the post struck a positive chord with you -- as I knew it would. I have you to thank for introducing me to Wolff when I first encountered Future Hi ;)
Thanks for this most enlightening trail, which puts 'things' into perspective, I haven't posted before, but you have all given me so much over the course of time, that I thought it appropriate to give a little back. I have given it one try to reach enlightenment, without using any psychedelics and entering the inner cosmos was itself quite a task, that demanded good practice and overcoming the sheer physics of remaining seated. I almost reached the destination, but unfortunately I came to understand why sanyassins go to caves. I did it in a flat with a nicely equipped French kitchen. After 2-3days I just had to eat something. I have tremendous respect for anyone who make it on their own, I tried for roughly 29 days and learned a million things hard to convey in words, but I didn't reach Nirvana, I only stood at the gates and ignorantly wanted more. There are other ways, I have discovered to assist the process: Hypnovision.com provide a lot of top subliminal development titles and let me just finish by recommending the Depeche Mode title: Macro, number 6 on their new album "Playing the Angel". http://www.repriserec.com/depechemode/audio/releases/mp3/macro_lp.mp3
Lovingly
Bjarke
Posted by: Bjarke Nielsen at April 17, 2006 02:08 AMGreetings, Bjarke!
Thanks for posting, and generally just hanging around!
Always rewarding to meet another sincere spiritual seeker ...
Namaste,
Upwinger
www.upwinger.blogspot.com
Event Horizon, thanks for sharing a very personal experience:
>>>all of a sudden I got the impression that everything I was looking at, everything I was experiencing, was constructed totally by/for my own mind.
I would claim that what you experienced is absolutely correct. I can imagine that the reason it felt terrifying was the sense of being completely alone.
This is known as Solipsism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism This entry is fascinating reading since it discusses some of the most fundamental questions of philosophy.
However, the idea that our mind is constructing reality is only terrifying if you make the assumption that all other entities are figments of your imagination. If instead, you assume that the world you experience is your creation, however, other real entities are also creating their own worlds, and there is overlap of these worlds which allows genuine communication, then the idea that you’re making up the world starts to be fun.
Lucid dreaming a very similar process to that which you have described. Normally we go through a dream with little or no awareness that it’s a dream (ie, we’re making it up as we go along). Lucid dreaming is the planned or unplanned realization that you’re dreaming, however, not awakening immediately, but staying in the dream and holding on to this point of view. Once you realize this, you might be able to fly, make love to whomever you want, and lots of other fun stuff. It is generally reported as incredibly liberating, not terrifying. Stephen LaBerge of Stanford University has done lots of laboratory work with lucid dreamer, proving that it is an experimentally verifiable state.
What is the deeper reason that you were so afraid? Here is where the “personal therapy” that you find so disturbing pops up.
Here Stanislov Grof describes his own experience with 300 micrograms of LSD, which helped him realize that many of our political motivations come from our experiences as early infants:
The images of the everyday misery ……. portrayed the absolute hopelessness of human existence, fraught with suffering from birth till death. At that point, I understood Existential philosophers and authors of the Theater of the Absurd. THEY KNEW! Human life is absurd, monstrous, and utterly futile; it is a meaningless farce and a cruel joke played on humanity. We are born in suffering, we suffer throughout life, and we die suffering. I felt I was in touch simultaneously with the pain of birth and with the agony of dying. They merged for me into an inextricable amalgam. This led to a truly horrifying realization: Human life ends in an experience that is similar to the one in which it began. …… The images of absurdity and futility of human life eventually became unbearable. The world appeared to be full of pain, suffering, and death. …... There were only incurable diseases, of which life was one, insanity, cruelties of all kinds, crime and violence, wars, revolutions, prisons, and concentration camps. How was it possible that I did not see all this before? To find anything positive in life, one must wear distorting rosy glasses and play a game of perpetual self-deception! It seemed that now my glasses had been broken, and I would never be able to fool myself again as I did before.
http://www.mimbres.com/holp/holpath/bpms.htm
This sounds like it could be a summary of some of your writing. The point is that this state of mind is related to a specific trauma--- related to an aspect of the birth process. Once the grip of the trauma is released, suddenly the world starts having some redeeming characteristics again.
I highly recommend that you study Grof if you’d like to get a deeper understanding of a mental process that you’re taking a bit too literally-- namely visualizing the world as full of pointless suffering and starvation at the hands of ruthless leaders, corporations and systems.
You certainly can’t criticize Grof’s work as only wanting to look at the Lily White stuff. It takes incredible courage and willingness to face the dark side -- intentionally diving into this kind of deep inner personal therapy.
Cheers,
D
I come to this site for a different viewpoint than what the rest of the world gives me. I am tired of always hearing "I can't." I have a tendancy to believe those who are trying to find the truth, and throw a skeptical eye to those who claim they have the answers.
If being negative and looking at the world in such a manner brings peace for any one person, then believe what you may. I have reached the end of this line of thought as it has not accomplished, for me, anything of greatness. Doing the same things over and over seems to not be resulting in any different outcome each time they are tried. I believe it is time to change the way I do these things.
Posted by: GrnLntrn at April 19, 2006 08:31 AMAnd what is it you do? Revel in the glory of being alive? Praise the miracle of existance, and practice inner peace and happiness throughout your life?
This is how you approach the problems of life on a personal level? This is how you deal with your fear, despair, hopeless, feelings of insignificance and a wasted life? Your guilt and shame at the quality of your life and the quality of others lives is dealt with on the subjective personal level, by channeling this negativity and turning it into positive emotions?
The epitome of the weak, the blind, and the foolish. You are tired of hearing 'I cant' yet you spend your life avoiding cuases and work instead on the results, your emotional state?
> I have reached the end of this line of thought as it has not accomplished, for me, anything of greatness.
A thing of greatness of being your own personal happiness? I mock you. Untill you realise there are more important things in this existance than you, you will continue to be a shadow, a fading memory, a creature reacting and adapting to circumstances. Being Human means having power, the power to change, to affect the world, to change lives, to create and to build.
This is what is needed for our species, always has been needed and always will be needed. This place, this website, this community has become a religious spiritual enclosure of inner/personal escapism, and I am trully and utterly saddened.
There are those who explore, who build, who struggle, who sacrifice, and who give everything including their lives. Then there are those who hide in the shadows, and seek not ever to be harmed nor involved.
You will do nothing of greatness by changing your fear into happiness, you will become sidetracked and you will become obsessed with the electrochemical signals of the machinery you have been given to live with.
Go find your Gods, and find your inner peace, and be happy untill the day you die. But do not speak of greatness, of change, or of accomplishment, for you sing a song that mocks all the great achievers in the history of our species.
What are you doing? You are colouring your mind with happy thoughts while you consume and consume the output of this far from perfect world.
Does it get harder and harder to achieve inner calm? Even as you grow more practiced and experianced? You matter not, unless you act.
Posted by: eventhorizen at April 20, 2006 12:39 AMMock all you wish. I do not experience all of this pain that you seem to hold closely to your soul anymore. I used cling to anger and guilt such as you do. However, I found that I did so because it was all that I knew. It was comfortable. It was more frightening to shift my thought process from that negativity that was consuming my soul.
Energy is energy. Wheather you decide to focus on negative or positive energy is your choice. I do not beleive you must experience suffering and anguish to achieve greatness. I do not believe that our lives are just about consuming resources while adding nothing back to the whole. Each person has their place and each person can become great in their own way. For each of "the great achievers in the history of our species" needed someone there to feed and cloth them.
I do not understand why it angers you so to see people making a decision to change their life in a positive way. However, if you feel the need to use me as a board to vent your despair, please do so.
Posted by: GrnLntrn at April 20, 2006 11:16 AM... And work on uplifting oneself, transcending former barriers, does not at all preclude the possibility of working on salvaging the rest of the world.
In fact, I believe the two go hand in hand.
It all begins with YOU.
NAMASTE
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Posted by: Amya Kenia at May 1, 2006 08:40 AMevent - your argument is based on materialism and duality. to disregard spirituality shows your own fear, the fear that your belief might be wrong. your interpretation of fear and importance is based almost entirely on those values. joy/fear, good/bad, yin/yang are just aspects of 'human' existence. to transcend these and reach nirvana or whatever religion you want to use as an example is merely to accept that completely, which requires surpassing your ego. i recommend zen buddhism if the word 'god' makes you go off. look it up, make an effort to see another side rather than assume they are escaping any sort of 'fear'. again it is only my opinion, but the existence of anything spiritual seems almost 'materially' proven in this world and the sooner its accepted the sooner humans can evolve.
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.