You are a wise soul...I can feel that you are on a very deeply personal mission. I too am a psychonaut that strives to find purpose and meaning--and above all else an "over-arching viewpoint" of reality.

Check out some of Terence McKenna and his brother Dennis McKenna's work if you haven't already. I'm going to try and upload my gigantic archive of Terence onto my site and hopefully create a "one-stop-shop" for neo-shamans and techno pagans.

Keep on keepin' on..and remember:

EVERYTHING...IS...EVERYTHING.

-DaDornta

Posted by: DaDornta at February 26, 2006 09:01 PM

"Meditation and extreme sports? Sure! Yoga and raving? You bet! Science and magick? Exactly."

What about the father whose wife and children died in a car crash he survived? What about the life of the last remaining hunter gather tribes in the world? What about the last few months of life of a terminally ill cancer patient? What about the mental instability and withdrawl from society into complete reclusivess by the exceptionally intelligent individual? What about autism?

It would seem to me that rather than the life you lead, meaning and experiance depends entirally upon your state and structure of mind.

I know if I want an experiance to change my life, that will shake me to the very core, I need only spend a few days with someone who knows they are dying, yet have lived a rather mundane and completely shallow life. Alternativly, so called 'experianced radical dudes, psychonauts, and explorers of the soul' often have absolutly nothing of value to say, other than its all one beautiful great mystery 'man'.

Very many of the most disturbing, insightful, bizarre, productive, complex, fascinating minds in the history of this entire planet have been found withdrawn from people and the world at large.

What life cosmos shattering realisation can you come to, plummeting to earth at terminal velocity?
A defining breakthrough in the search for God? The unargueable truth about 'just exactly how our universe works'? or the realisation that 'this shit is CRAZY man'?
We already knew that.

"Such experiences often send one into wild theologizing, wanton philosophizing, or revolutionary mathematical incantations. Indeed, this is the gnostic foundation of inspiration."

Name me one, just one, invention, discovery, or realisation in the last 200 years that owes it existance to the contemplation of an experiance alone. Im not saying this doesnt happen, but I'm saying you will have far harder time thinking of one than you might expect.

Ok let me throw in two of my own examples. Martin Luther King and Ghandi. These two men had lives of experiance such as my examples, rather than yours.

Infact, perhaps in the 'Greater Scheme of Things'
a life of suffering and misery is more desireable than 'Meditation and extreme sports, Yoga and raving, Science and magick?'. The former seeming to lend itself only to the 'mending' or comforting of a solitary mortal 'soul', while the former being a life of suffering and turmoil, that ultimatly benefits all mankind for as long as their memories remain. Or rather, greater meaning and benefit can be found in a life of great suffering.

Ofcourse that kind of altruistic point of view is rarely welcome on the world today ;) Hell, it never has been.

Anyway, my point was that I disagree that you have to 'fill your life with mind shattering experiances' to be able to more deeply understand this life, this existance.
Infact I believe that you need only one such experiance, or perhaps even more simply and basicly, to open your mind to their existance without having to directly experiance them, but you need to able to properly assimilate that into your mind, into your existance, let it become part of the ever growing furniture.

In short, I find it rather presumptuous that you would claim meaning can be found in a life lived 'to the full', when the fact is meaning can be found anywhere, anywhen, by anyone, as long as their is life.

Make no mistake, I do agree with most of your post. Hyper-perception is the key, but the obliteration of language and self referance simply removes material from under the gaze, and immersing yourself in an ocean of experiance is by no means a guarentee of achieving that 'moment when something just strikes you'. Infact I would go so far as to say that removing all those distractions and calming the body and mind is perhaps the greatest way to let the world inspire you.

Perhaps you might wish to shorten this statement,
"Meditation and extreme sports? Sure! Yoga and raving? You bet! Science and magick? Exactly" to simply "Observation and Meditation"

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 27, 2006 02:23 AM

You seem to only be reading what you want to read.

eh wrote:

It would seem to me that rather than the life you lead, meaning and experiance depends entirally upon your state and structure of mind.

Where do I talk about "the life you lead"? I'm talking about mind states and cognitive structures and how they impact experience.

Anyway, my point was that I disagree that you have to 'fill your life with mind shattering experiances' to be able to more deeply understand this life, this existance.

Where did I say this? You even put it in quotes like it was verbatim. All I'm saying is that there is a strong interplay between experience and meaning which can be both positive and negative in how it impacts our perception and state of mind. If someone gets too caught up in meaning, it can be helpful to seek novel experiences. You act like there's only one choice, like you can't have powerful experiences and meditative states.

...a life of suffering and misery is more desireable than 'Meditation and extreme sports, Yoga and raving, Science and magick?'. The former seeming to lend itself only to the 'mending' or comforting of a solitary mortal 'soul', while the former being a life of suffering and turmoil, that ultimatly benefits all mankind...

Right, so only a person who has suffered greatly can deliver anything of value to the human species? Peak experiences offer nothing? I'm starting to see why you take such a reactionary and confrontational stance on this site. You've obviously had a tough life. And don't talk about death and suffering like your the only one who's been there.

Perhaps you might wish to shorten this statement,"Meditation and extreme sports? Sure! Yoga and raving? You bet! Science and magick? Exactly" to simply "Observation and Meditation"

Or perhaps I might not. I have addressed both observation and meditation, as well as experience and meaning. If anything, I'd make the article longer, not shorter.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 27, 2006 08:53 AM

Great Post my friend.. An enlightening rumination on alternative perceptions of life..

I'd just like to make a few comments to 'eventhorizon'

1.) Why so angry?

2.) Learn how to spell before you decide to argue a point with words..

3.) From what rock did you emerge to yell and scream with one eye..

4.) Your a** is not your mothers womb, time to crawl out of it. You were born and obviously are alive so please stop objectifying your life based on one failed experience..

It actually becomes a life of suffering and misery for me, knowing, that there are people out there that think so one-sided and have such closed-minds.. I'm pretty sure that you'll only argue with just about any point or contention or refutation of your drivle herein so i won't even bother critiquing you.. I'm sorry that you felt such mind-numbing pain at some point in your life; a pain that has forced you into some fierce insect-like state of control over your emotions.. Insect minds seem to be flourishing lately.. It is truly scaring me..

one more thing..

Chris and all of you at Future-hi, please reconsider the white flag scenario and keep up the exceptional work of new perspectives on your site. There are those of us out there that fervently desire a community of people awake and aware of the future and willing to progress into that future learning from the past and the present.. I look forward to reading more of your enlightening insights..

Keep on Keepin on...

Posted by: Zebraeidos at February 27, 2006 11:14 AM

Thanks for the compliments.

I'd like to add that we at Future Hi are not some naive gaggle of children sheltered from the stinging arrows of life. We all bear our share of suffering. I've lost more loved ones to untimely tragedies than I ever thought was possible for someone not yet 35. I've watched people die first-hand, touched them as their bodies cooled.

What we profess, what we put forth, is the courage to remain positive and hopeful in spite of the tragedies and in spite of the fear & suffering. Anyone can give in to the darkness. The real work is in tending the light.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 27, 2006 12:10 PM

Eventhorizon, what's your deal man? Every comment you've made recently has been like nails scraping across a blackboard. Why so negative?

Posted by: Phil at February 27, 2006 01:44 PM

EventHorizon, I'm convinced, actually does mean well. She's a thoughtful Scottish lass. But, as usual, Chris, I resonate with your post, man! Very good. As usual you said great stuff, and said it very well. Your point-by-point discussion of EventHorizon's post was very good and pertinent, as well. Let's try not to be too hard on her, on the one hand. On the **OTHER** hand, though: EventHorizon, darling: Please do check out all the all the stuff not just here at FutureHi, but at all the other websites that Paul & Chris, et al, recommend. There is, actually, abundant cause for hope. Check out Tom Bearden's stuff (google that name...). I think we all agree that we need to be careful shepards of the processes now in play. We can influence the future--we don't have to blindly submit to it.

Again, Chris, way to go!

We'll PREVAIL, y'all! We'll PREVAIL...[wink]

Posted by: MCP2012 at February 27, 2006 05:51 PM

You only seem to acknowledge writing what you wish to acknowledge writing.

Your post was interesting, and thought provoking right up to this point, "Meditation and extreme sports? Sure! Yoga and raving? You bet! Science and magick? Exactly." where as far as I am concerned you basiclly said New-Age Action Man shall unlock all the secrets to all the questions we have.

This is complete and utter arrogance, and ignorance. I admire the train of thought you went down here, and the bravery and desire to put this thinking on this website, but for God sake leave out the '21st century urban shamans for the win' phrases, because quite simply what you wrote in conclusion is wrong, narrow minded, and only plays to the 'crowd' here at FutureHi.

As for my two examples of people making a difference via the contemplation of observation, I did not mean they related to my life, rather that their lives agreed with the point I was trying to put across. Rather than jumping out of planes etc. these men would appear to have been fairly quiet, peaceful types, who spent their lives musing over, well im guessing just about everything. Infact when you look back over the entire history of humanity and search for people who's minds made a difference for the good or betterment, or advancement of humanity, the list would seem to consist mostly of unassuming, quiet people, going about their lives.

Usually, and I mean this with respect, people preaching and practicing 'the path to power and knowledge' end up having neither. There may be answers out there, but 'going and grasping them' like an excerpt from some self help manual isnt going to work in these kinds of cases ;)

As for the growing interest and commentry in my own personal life, it really has absolutely nothing to do with anyone here. This website, quote, "Seeking to create a joyous, infinitely expanding future; Future Hi is an online community exploring the frontiers of higher intelligence, accelerating technology, anthropological exodus, utopian dreams, imagination and logic." So I will kindly ask you to mind your own business.

It has become markedly apparant over several posts in answer to mine that some aspects of this community suffers from a distinct lacking of the old 'practice what you preach'. I find it very dissapointing that as one of the youngest members of this forum, I am repeatedly having to ask people to cut out the personal attacks.

There is such a thing as manners, as decency, as a bit of respect. Now while you may not think these things are apparent in my posts, I believe I observe all of these things by sticking to the point, and commenting only on these topics. While it is obvious that there is 'internet behaviour' meaning that on most forums etc, there is almost no rules for the guiding of ones behaviour, I believe that that is what the mind and soul are for. Therefore is extremelly disheartening to see this kind of concerted group rallying around a favoured poster who is arguing a point to produce rather personal mockery and wholly inappropriate questions and remarks.

It makes FutureHI look like some kind of DreamyEyed Futurist Fanboy Club.

Please, grow up and either agree or disagree or say nothing in regards to my posts.

And before I end, let me make it perfectly clear that I am willing to make enemies of anyone and everyone here if it results in debate, discussion, or arguement and defence of points I disagree with. This may be the result of 'whatever', but its my mind so deal with it. Thus if you do not wish me to disrupt this cosy hive of community that exists here, I suggest all of you that have issues with me get on the old personal messages to a someone who Moderates these boards, and get them to ask me to move along. I have no wish of spoiling a community, any community, with unwelcome questions, arguements, opinions, or disagreements, and nor do I wish to have unwelcome or unnapropriate remarks back.

Please remember that this is a site with real potential, I do not think it is intended to be used as a place where you can love each others validation of your own worth and flame others, but I may be wrong.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 28, 2006 12:31 AM

I want to support Event Horizon's right to post and to disagree.

I've noticed that when people write poetic or philosophical pieces on Future Hi, that most of the responses consist of "amazing", "incredible", "you're such an visionary" and so forth.

This kind of patting on the back is wonderful, but too much of it makes it seem as though the work is just a piece of art, meant to be appreciated but not dissected or analyzed, as though that would be disrespectful to the artist.

I think we should welcome all serious disagreement and discussion. Event Horizon took the time to really analyze what Chris was saying, and give an honest, thoughtful response.

As a writer I'd much prefer to get thoughtful feedback than 20 "that's great!"s

It is in defending our ideas, that we develop them and make them stronger and occasionally even realize that we were wrong.

A thought provoking dialogue between different points of view makes this site more colorful and ultimately far more effective, since dreamy high-flying ideas could benefit from some vetting before they'll survive in the larger sphere.

Another point is that we need to be careful about criticizing people's spelling because not everyone on this site is a native English language speaker.

Anyway, let's avoid making Future Hi into religious forum by encouraging and respecting and learning from different points of view.

Cheers,
Dlight

Posted by: Dlight at February 28, 2006 01:52 AM

I have no prob with dissenting points of view and would prefer debate over back-patting. The problem for me is that I find it very difficult to see what EH's opinion/perspective actually is. IMHO, She exceeds in articulating dissent but fails in articulating Hir own position. Instead of pointing out the problems why not let us in on your solutions?

Here's an example of what bothers me:

eh wrote:...as far as I am concerned you basiclly said New-Age Action Man shall unlock all the secrets to all the questions we have. This is complete and utter arrogance, and ignorance.

In the first line SHe acknowledges a subjective personal interpretation that I'm saying Action Man will save us (which is not true - I'm merely offering one of a myriad of possible paths to living more fully). But then SHe moves to the next line and makes a bold declarative statement about how ignorant and arrogant I am. How can you flame ME for YOUR interpretation? How can you base a factual statement on an assumption?

I'm just writing shit, you know? Most of it is a process of me trying to get at my own thoughts. I'm not preaching here, I'm talking.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 28, 2006 08:14 AM

Answers to what? The meaning of life? World Peace? The underlying principle of existance?
"Instead of pointing out the problems why not let us in on your solutions?"
I thought we were discussing the fact I disagree with some of the points you raise in your post? Someone else in another post not too long ago asked me 'to stop pointing out the problems and start giving out all the answers' when I disagreed that Utopia or Oblivion were the only options for humanity in the coming century.

Anyway enough with this pointless, useless, directionless waste of time and lets get to the point, shall we?

There are a number of points in your well written, though provoking post that I disagree with, but lets stick to the subject of the preceding posts, atleast for now. Namely this statement.

"Yeah, those subtle moments we sometimes drift into... Pure experience and overwhelming meaning. Impossible meaning. Meaning that exceeds the ability of our language to describe it in any truly approximate way. Such experiences often send one into wild theologizing, wanton philosophizing, or revolutionary mathematical incantations. Indeed, this is the gnostic foundation of inspiration. It's the ingression of godhead into the humble ways of humanity. Yet it's never as common or available as we'd like. The best paths to such hyper-perception will seek the obliteration of language and self-reference coupled with an aggressive will to experience the fullness of life. Meditation and extreme sports? Sure! Yoga and raving? You bet! Science and magick? Exactly."

Hyper-perception of experiance or meaning in a subtle moment rarely, if ever, in itself leads to anything relevant. Wild mathematical incantations that are accurate, correct, and revelatory are not going to come from someone with absolutly no knowledge of any kind of mathematics. Same with philosophy and theology. Same with everything. History proves time and time again that any advancement or breakthrough in any field, or any totally revolutionary thinking or idea, that has ever been accepted as being valid, or been proven by time to be correct, does not come entireally from a single moment, but from a life time of hyper-perception and almost psychotic transfixtion on that particular subject, or issue, or whatever.

Infact, thinking over this particular point, I have come to the conclusion that the seeds of hyper-perception starts off at the moment of conception, and is channeled, directed, and altered due to the intense conditioning one undergoes during childhood. It would appear, from thinking of examples of people who's inspiration has amounted to something tangible, that high or exceptional natural intelligence combined with almost psychotic attention to a particular 'thing', are the hallmarks of Genius. Hyper-perception of a singular problem, situation, issue, 'thing' seems to vary remarkeably in individuals, as does natural intelligence, and this seems to correspond accuratly to the fact very few people in their life times ever produce Einstein style work.

I dont believe this kind of hyper-perception that leads to tangible revelation (as opposed to vague realisation that cant be communicated, which quite frankly is nothing) can be 'self taught', as it is usually a life long dedication to a single art or problem, and hyper-perception of reality (even though these people seem oblivious to 'the real world') is the only way these people are going to live their life. Hyper-perceptive to things everyone else simply doesnt get.

Look at Alexander the Great, an obvious example, and to be honest my knowledge of history isnt good enough to pull anything other than the most obvious to mind. There is absolutly no doubting this man was absolutly hyper-perceptive of so much that ones mind simple gives up trying to imagine what was going on in his head. He could not have been totally encased in his own study of reality (unlike say Einstein) because he had to react and manipulate so much so often in his lifetime. It is obvious he was extremelly intelligent, it is known he was extremelly psychotic, it is known he had deep mental issues regarding many many things.

It is a simple fact, through observation alone, that people are not going to condition their way to a revelatory experiance. They will be driven to discover one by their own hyper-perception, of an issue, and of the things they believe are required to be studied in order to achieve their goal.

Im not saying 'everyone' cant have a moment of clarity, a moment where they 'see things a bit clearer', but whereas you claim that living life to the full can help you on the pathway to a moment of hyper-perception, I believe that ones level of hyper-perception and natural intelligence that they have had throughout their lives determines what the outcome of that moment of clarity shall be.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 28, 2006 11:16 AM

Hyper-perception of experiance or meaning in a subtle moment rarely, if ever, in itself leads to anything relevant.

This is by your personal definition of what consitutes relevancy. An individual epiphany may not miraculously produce an Einstein from a Joe Blo, but it may inspire someone to talk with their kids more or to take up a creative art in an attempt to better express themselves.

Im not saying 'everyone' cant have a moment of clarity, a moment where they 'see things a bit clearer', but whereas you claim that living life to the full can help you on the pathway to a moment of hyper-perception, I believe that ones level of hyper-perception and natural intelligence that they have had throughout their lives determines what the outcome of that moment of clarity shall be.

Thank you. This is the level of clarity and succintness I would expect from someone of your obvious intelligence. And I agree. My prescription is just a suggestion of how to get to the moment of hyper-perception. There are many other paths, your mileage may vary. You accurately point out (finally!) that such experiences do not necessarily produce ground-breaking, super bacon genius burger results. And I agree. But you don't have to change the world for the experience to be personally valuable. I'm not talking about producing super humans here. I'm just talking about finding some balance between the quest for personal meaning and the need for personal experience.

I would, however, disagree with your statement that people will not "condition their way to a revelatory experience". Life is a series of revelatory experiences and there are numerous technologies and paths dedicated to attaining them more proficiently.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 28, 2006 11:58 AM

Eventhorizon,

How ironic that you picked a handle from a movie that had in the latin phrase 'Libre Me Domine'.. I may be totally off on your intentions and/or preferences but I'd have to speculate based on this paragraph:

And before I end, let me make it perfectly clear that I am willing to make enemies of anyone and everyone here if it results in debate, discussion, or arguement and defence of points I disagree with. This may be the result of 'whatever', but its my mind so deal with it. Thus if you do not wish me to disrupt this cosy hive of community that exists here, I suggest all of you that have issues with me get on the old personal messages to a someone who Moderates these boards, and get them to ask me to move along. I have no wish of spoiling a community, any community, with unwelcome questions, arguements, opinions, or disagreements, and nor do I wish to have unwelcome or unnapropriate remarks back.

that your either just lookin to argue or just lookin for enemies lass..

That anger's gonna burn you up...

Posted by: Zebraeidos at February 28, 2006 01:53 PM

event horizon

this will be the last response i will ever make to one of your comments for a few simple reasons.

1)i never have any idea what the hell you're disputing or what you are trying to achieve (and also wonder if you know either).

2)i spent years of my life around people that you remind me of and they made me feel dumb by confusing me with cyclical, pointless argument for the sake of argument.

3)your arguments bite away at words, turns of phrase or metaphor so much that they offer very little construtive criticism and nearly always lead away from the meat of the post.

people who discuss things the way that you do made me feel dumb but that's no longer the case because i realised that these people were hiding behind the power of their own voice and strength of their certainty, that they had no idea what was happening in the world or in their own heads.

i put a lot of people into this category but not the majority of people here at FH because we are bold enough to question ourselves and admit that we do not know everything for certain. we're constantly updating our perceptual models and polishing our belief systems. but i wonder if you ever do that for yourself? or do you just spend your days picking away at other people's tentative and optimistic ideas?

the world is filled with people who do this and they aren't the ones who move mountains or even change their own lives.

i wish you all the happiness in the world lass, but i'm not going to even consider your posts anymore because they don't help me meditate or participate. they don't inspire me or make me think or act.

finally: for me it's your certainty at being right which frustrates me so let me leave you with some RAW quotes. now there's a man who knows a lot but is never certain.

“If you think you know what the hell is going on, you're probably full of shit.”

“Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.”

“Intelligence is the capacity to receive, decode and transmit information efficiently. Stupidity is blockage of this process at any point. Bigotry, ideologies etc. block the ability to receive; robotic reality-tunnels block the ability to decode or integrate new signals; censorship blocks transmission.”

“I don't believe anything I write or say. I regard belief as a form of brain damage, the death of intelligence, the fracture of creativity, the atrophy of imagination. I have opinions but no Belief System (B.S.)”

peace and freedom.

Posted by: nowist at February 28, 2006 03:06 PM

Reading your post Chris reminded me of when I heard Bill Harris of Holosync say, 'Life has no meaning but what you give it'.

I had two very strong responses to that statement. The first was a quite grasping, needy and anxious repsonse, "What, there is no meaning! What do you mean by that? (ha,ha) I need to have a meaning! I need to know 'Why'. That's too big of a reponsibility. That's scary" and the other response was 'Whew, what a relief. It's all down to me. That feels very powerful and freeing. I have the choice of how to colour in my own life. A choice over the quality of my life. I'm only limited by my own imagination, creativity and bravery'.

At the risk of sounding complimentary Chris, your (I think, very well-written and quite poetic - oh no, two compliments) post really extrapolated that simple idea. I don't get the impression that you write to receive compliments and backpats but it seems inevitable that some readers will find alignment with, and inspiration in, what you write. I just really liked it. I think both you and Paul have articulated with clarity quite ephemeral and unquanitifiable subjects in your recent posts. Belief and Meaning.

Living is a massively creative action. There are magic and options to be found as you take on reponsibility for your own repsonses to the experience that you find yourself having/creating. The choice between having it done to you or being the doer. Action or reaction. Asleep or Awake.

Sometimes I stay conscious and sometimes I'm comatose but it is excellent to have the choice.

Posted by: ThiSisReaLLYhaPPEniNg at February 28, 2006 03:18 PM

No, no, no, no, no Nowist. Well, yes actually. Now you've done my head in - but in a good way. A belief to have no beliefs!!!! That is so true and so self-cancelling at the same time isn't it. Now this is going to give me something to think about on the boring drive I'm about to do.

It makes me think of using a sigil. Make it, really really believe in it and then let it go. I suppose it has to do with not getting stuck and locked in. To keeping flowing.

If you get stuck in a belief then your intelligence is shut down but beliefs can lead to further intelligent exploration. Paradoxes arrrgh.

This is just a quick response as I must go but interesting to ponder. Believe/Don't Believe. Thanks.

A quick story that I shared with someone recently re things that feel in opposition. I keep trying to put it into practise but it isn't easy I must admit.

"Did you hear the great story about Ram Dass having a picture of Bob Dole on his altar. He did a practice where he looked at the picture and as he looked he watched his heart space close up and learned? Classic Dass."

That's not an easy or pleasant practice. Challenging though.

Must drive now.

Posted by: tHisIsReaLLYhaPPEniNg at February 28, 2006 04:20 PM

Dlight,

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have *not* read everything EventHorizon has been posting over the last month. I'm fairly confident you would see that it is not his/her dissent that we are having a problem with. If you also look at the comments over the last 2 years, you'll see there is a tremendous amount of dissent. Dissent is one thing, but an almost constant and relentless thrashing of everything we write, with commented posts by EH that go on for 20 paragraphs is another. If his/her posts were "serious critiques" as you've said, then that would be something to devote our limited time responding to. However, I define serious critiques as being INFORMATIVE. Even EH admits they are not informed, but proceeds to passionately argue anyway for another 20 paragraphs. As Chris said, it becomes increasinly impossible to understand what his/her argument is, other than argument for arguments sake. There comes a point when you realize that someone like EH is *never* going to change their mind or consider alternative points of view other than their own, no matter how well reasoing or factual your argument is . What's the point? I'm confident now I could say "the Earth is round", and EH would write an extremely long-winded rant about how everything I'm saying is wrong, my point of view flawed, my assumptions ungrounded, and my position and writing style arrogant.

Seriously. What is becoming humanly exhausting about continuing Future Hi is that people are coming around here shouting their mouths off without bothering to read the most basic premises of this site, and our arguments forthwith. We've spent the last two years and over 500 posts doing just that. Even reading a few dozen background posts would be enough for most people to come away informed about where we're coming from. If they want to passionately disagree at that point, bring it on!! I have insisted on as much for EH, which they refused to do. Seriously, where do you go with that?

Until someone steps in our shoes for a while, put the sweat, blood and tears we've put in here at Future Hi, really has no right to criticize how poor a job we're doing in tolerating or not tolerating every misguided poster that comes our way.

Its simple - either Event Horizon should present more informed and fair counter arguments, or better still, alternative solutions, or go somewhere else. In the end, what good is critique, if the person can't provide even the most basic attempt at something better? At this point, not only has it become a case of borderline harassment, but for the first time is threatening the continuation of Future Hi. We are only human for fucking sake. To be blunt for a moment - do a better job, or keep silent.

Ask yourself this, is it more important for Future Hi to continue in some form, its positive message of hope and vision, as best we can as hard working, sensitive, and well meaning human beings (flaws and all), or take Future Hi offline forever?

Besides, some of our posts are meant as works of poetry or art, or better still, online prayers or affirmations. Since when did this "unspoken rule" that everything posted on the internet has to go thru the same fucking tireless "rationalists" thrashing those types always insist on? It's not like every post we have is meant for some objectivefied peer-reviewed journal. Give me a break. If that's what people are looking for here at Future Hi, then yes, they have come to the wrong place, and should look elsewhere. Do we have to dissect every prayer and affirmation as well? When does it stop? When can we create a more positive space within this site for people to come for inspiration, hope, healing and prayer? That is exactly what I was saying when I decided to call it quits with Future Hi last month, only to decide after much heartfelt pleading by our readership to come back with this very intent. No, this site will make space for them. It's what I need, and its obviously what MANY people are coming here for. What then Dlight is wrong with creating art once in while - art specifically created as positive, healing affirmation? Especially when so many are finding such healing and hope from it. Should we maintain a rationalist peer-review mentality for *every* post just to please you, EH and a MINORITY of others. Nope, not going to happen. Not as long as I am around. Rational and informed dissent will remain and be welcomed, but so will prayers, affirmations, and art (as you say).

Posted by: Paul at February 28, 2006 07:55 PM

Well-said, Paul (as usual, of course! [wink]). What I think a LOT of us "regulars" here at FutureHi would like is an on-going "peer-review" in the sense of a Socratic Symposium, i.e., the development of a **community** of peers/colleagues who spiritually & intellectually resonate with one another, who share the same (meta)vision(s) of what IS (trans)humanly **POSSIBLE**, **ACHIEVEABLE**. WE CAN be an on-going (internally) "peer-reviewed" collage of symposia. But this surely (and, to me at least, rather *obviously*) needn't preclude the posting of affirmations, poetry, poetically-expressed *visions*, etc., etc. I mean, remember guys & gals, this is THE locus-classicus for **psychedelic** futurism--with or w/o neuropharmacological inducement. That is, **psychedelic** states of awareness--howsoever induced--is, at least in part--ABOUT **VISIONS** and/or bardo-like affirmations, etc. And the FutureHi *COMMUNITY* is about **sharing** such visions, insights, affirmations etc.--sometimes in prose, even semi-rigorous scientific and/or scholarly prose...BUT, ALSO, ***and just a meaningfully & effectively*** in a more poetic prose, or even full-fledged poetry. And what's wrong with this? Well, gee, NOTHING!! **NOTHING** is "wrong" with that AT ALL, AT ALL!

THIS site is seemingly ecclectic in its posts and/or content or "format"--but that's just superficial. There is--**and always has been**--an undrelying, background meta-vision shared by Paul & Chris & Upwinger, and others (including, I would say, yours-truly) that is, in essence, a vision of (trans)humanity's potential, which is open-ended, and, ultimately, INFINITE. FutureHi is, in fact, in my judgment, defining and embodying the very **cutting-edge** of futuristic blogs: It is teacher, information source, inspiration source, Socratic Symposium, and World's Fair of the (transhumanist) Mind all in one, and so vrey much more. And we owe this to Paul's vision and soul and, yes, chutzpah! ***THANK YOU***, PAUL!!

EventHorizon & Dlight, and all: Please research nanotech as best and thoroughly as you can. Please research the potential of robotics & AGI. Please research and explore the contributions of Saul-Paul Sirag and Tom Bearden, among others, toward not only a (non-reductive!) physics of consciousness, but also a systematic science of hyperspace, leading eventually to full-blown hyperspatial **engineering**. Read Michael Talbot's classic, **Mysticism & the New Physics**. Then you'll begin to "get in..." WE'RE the cutting-edge, folks! This is not just self-congratulatory self-back-patting. No, no; quite the contrary: We has met the agents-of-change, agents-of-the-future...and THEY is US...!! So we have a tremendous RESPONSIBILITY...Let's not blow it...

We all in this together, guys & gals. Please take this old man's word for it: There is--really!!--abundant cause for HOPE and OPTIMISM! This site has always been a BEACON, a CLARION, and a LOCUS for that HOPE & OPTIMISM. It's beyond its "function"--it is, in fact, its very ESSENCE & SOUL. And, again, we have Paul, preeminently, to THANK for this...Put it like this: If FutureHi didn't exist, someone would have to invent it!!! It's that important!!

Please take heed, EH! Try to ***resonate*** with what Paul has said, with what Chris/lvx23 has said, and with what I (if I may presume to include myself here) have said. Dialog and dialectical criticism is fine, but it MUST be both itself **informed** and **informative**, and the latter (at least usually/preferably if not necessarily) includes a proposal(s) for viable options/alternatives for **improvement**. Which is to say, don't just CARP and/or whine--try to suggest/propose HOW to turn whatever LEMONS you seem to see so much of into LEMONADE. Yeah, I know this seems cliche and trite (and please forgive me for that), but it's got a kernel of truth to it: Research SOLUTIONS for any given perceived PROBLEM(S). SOLUTIONS can be found--they're out there. Let's all pursue, among other things, the finding and presenting of SOLUTIONS...

And, take heart, Paul: FutureHi is, by any competent reckoning, one of the most important & magnificent websites on the whole WWW. Never doubt that for a millisecond!

Health, Prosperity & Eudaimonia to all (and to all a good night...[wink])

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 1, 2006 12:13 AM

Hi Paul,
Oops it seems I've accidentally jumped into the middle of a frying pan here...

I find it funny that people are lumping me in with Event Horizon because I am possibly the most hardcore optimist on this site.

It's true that I was not aware that Event Horizon had become an intrusive or irritating voice in the mix here, I've only seen one or two of EH's posts.

If you guys feel strongly that someone is being abusive, there should be some way to form a consensus that someone's posts are not constructive and simply bar that person.

Having studied intentional communities a bit, these kinds of conflicts arise all the time. There need to be objective and fair ways to resolve conflicts in groups before they fester into this kind of frustration and anger. Once the FH community decides (by whatever agreed upon method) that someone is being offensive or destructive there should be no hesitation in removing them.

As far as my comment about art, of course there should be pure poetry and artistic philosophy and wild dreams and luxurious wishes on this site. I'm all for it.

I realize that one reason you wanted to back out of future hi was you felt like you were catching too much flak from some of your posts, so I can see why you reacted negatively to what I only intended as a defense of thoughtful debate.

Perhaps there should be some way for an author to indicate whether their post is artistic and hence to be appreciated as such, or whether they are proposing a new theory or new way of thinking or changing the world, which would warrant and welcome critical feedback from different perspectives. Of course, many times this distinction is obvious, but not always. It would certainly have been no fun during the discussion of peak oil if everyone had said "amazing post" and left it at that.

But I fully support your and others' rants and visions and wishes and prayers visualizing a brighter future (or even a darker future), and I support an author’s right not to be criticized if that’s their wish. Perhaps the author’s wishes in this regard need to be made more explicit.

I also believe that very strong rational arguments can be made that we're in the middle of an unprecedented positive global revolution. (Admittedly this doesn't seem too convincing now as Iraq melts down). I'm into the functionality of ideas--- if we really have a chance at an awesome future, what are the memes, tools, and structures necessary for mankind to choose the brighter path? I feel that FH is immensely powerful in providing a place to help envision that future, to bring it into focus so that it can be achieved.

But I certainly didn't intend to imply that every post should be functional or rational and I'm sorry if it sounded that way.

I am a huge supporter of FH and will continue to contribute in any way I can.

Peace,
Dlight

Posted by: dlight at March 1, 2006 01:43 AM

Hi Dlight,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I am sorry if I offended you in any way. It's just that are some strong feelings that we are feeling right now, because so much is at stake. FH has been a labor of love, but more recently its also become a huge drain in so many ways. It's like fighting an uphill battle, and sometimes you just want to take a break. However, when these breaks become increasingly longer, FH began to languish. This is when I decided to hang it up, feeling that I could spread so much more light and love elsewhere. When I let everyone know that, I was overwhelmed at the positive response I had received. If you are seeing a lot of praise about how "cool" or "visionary" we are the last few weeks, it's because we all needed that so much. We needed that boost. We needed that moral support, and FH readers came out to give us that. Because of that, and only because of that we press on. Becuause it ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS - we are human. We have feelings and we struggle and we have hard and rough days, just like everyone else. I personally got tired of having to constantly hold myself to someone else's higher standards. Fuck that. I'm human. And so I decided that if I came back and continued to keep Future Hi going that it would be more personal. And that is precisely what is has become. It also happens to be what most people wanted anyway. Big, but also very pleasant suprise there. The few who didn't like the new format have mostly moved on. Ok. I won't loose sleep over it. All I know is I feel much happier and more at peace than I ever have, and in turn many others are starting to feel that too generally in where things are heading, despite whatever else is happening in the world.

Peace to you as well, and I definitely appreciate your support.

Love,

Paul

Posted by: Paul at March 1, 2006 02:30 AM

How is claiming that consciousness is the source, not the source of the perception, but the actual source, of EVERYTHING, that all humans are infact Gods at this very second due to the very fact they have consciousness, that human beings within 5 to 50 (and im being generous) will absorb nanotech and other advanced technologies flawlessly straight into our civilisation so that all people will transcend into Godhood, solve every problem, and fulfill every iota of potential within every living person on this Earth.

Tell me, right now, how this is anything other than giving frightened, confused, souls a metaphorical 'its ok, its not your fault' pat on the back, freeing people from responsibility for past present and future, showing them ways to hide their guilt and fear and get on with their lives, and still expect them to do nothing other than be happy, and STILL be totally saved a few decades down the line, when as the saying goes, that big pile of shit heading for that massive fan at high speed is likely to connect.

If "Seeking to create a joyous, infinitely expanding future; Future Hi is an online community exploring the frontiers of higher intelligence, accelerating technology, anthropological exodus, utopian dreams, imagination and logic." Consists of waiting around for some kind of dreamy Utopian Ultra Technology Reality to emerge, while we worship our own brains. Then I feel it is my duty and honour to attack everything written here, that follows this absurd point of view.

Lets all wait around for someone ELSE to develop a fair system of Government shall we? Lets all wait around for someone ELSE to develop advanced tech, Lets all wait around for someone ELSE to develop and unravel the secrets of our existance shall we?
Oh, so you dont know enough about these topics to make their appearance and integration and emergance come quicker and in your own hands? Then go learn about them Paul, like you told me to do, go learn the basics of the reality, take your eyes off the Comic Books and the Cosmic Gurus, and focus that 'creative artistic affirmitive positive mind' of yours on creating something positive and useful that is more than a 'Dont worry, the world isnt as bad as they make out' for the business men and women that did a bit of drugs in their youth, burned our Earth and now feel bad about it.

While you have been formulating and developing this ultra impressive and inspirational 'hope for the future' have you even seen the fucked up mess our atmosphere has become? or the barren rubbish tip, warzone, poisoned, polluted wastelands? Deserts of the same GM crops, pesticides, cash crops, intensivly farmed food production factories raping the very soil underneath them, while mountains of food go to maintaining the most clinically overweight populations the world has ever seen? Have you watched the shattering collapse and implosion of every form of Government and society barring that which values money above everything else including human life? Have you noticed as the entire infrastructure of the world becomes entireally dependant on cheap and convenient fuels that are going to run out? Soon?
Have you witnessed the explosive growth of what was repugnant, delightful and just plain normal of times gone past into the repugnant, delightful, and just plain normal of today? All the time coupled with natural inquisitivness and base instincts that means we pick up a stick and use to beat another male off a girl we like, or we pick up some economic and business sense and go around crushing the businesses and lives of our oppositions workforce, plundering and looking for areas we can exploit, while we sit back and earn more money than some entire nations. This is the pathway to Godhood and bliss? Sit back and wait a few decades and that magnet IBM used to spell its name out of atoms will have pushed us into being the masters of existance?

Let me put all this into perspective for you. 2600 Years Ago, Aristotle lived untill he was around 64. I doubt I will see 64, how many people here will live untill they are 64? All this time fabulous new tools have come spilling out of Pandoras Box, but at the same time we admit we have gone through periods where we lost frighteningly large volumnes of knowledge. Now we approach the coming days, months, years and decades, and here are you, and FH, eagerly awaiting the arrival of yet more anticipated deliverys from Pandoras Box.

What am I doing? Ripping to shreds every arguement or point raised I disagree with, and asking others to do the same to me.

Knowledge isnt some kind of self propogating entity. Im sitting here watching the snow fall outside, and im thinking that I have no idea what any of it is. I have no idea what gravity is, the force between two objects with mass, the curvature of spacetime, I have no idea what mass is, I have no idea what these basic 'parts' that make ultimatly the snow flakes are, no idea what the mediums that bound and enclose and permeate everything are. Sure I could rattle on about quarks and leptons, or spacetime, or forces, and sure we have the equations to describe it, and it all comes together to make up everything I see around me, but I dont know anything about it, I have so many questions about it, and you come along and say 'its consciousness' then run away and hide behind Future Hi.

Now, and this is where I shall apologise, perhaps I did not recognise FutureHi as the Oasis of closed door optimism, art, prayers and affirmations of self worth in an ocean of dispair, fear, hatred, negativity that it is. I will be the first to admit, compared to whats written here, I have come in spreading 'negative vibes'. But here is the Irony, I consider my vision of the future to be relativly optimistic, we will battle on.

I may be wrong, you may be wrong. Are we agreed? If I am wrong, and the simple continuation, raise and fall, tentative progress of our species doesnt continue, well atleast the future will be exciting, and I will be able to hungrilly devour much of interest before my death. If you are wrong, it would appear to spell woe for yourself and others that share your view of Godhood and apotheosis, it would also be the first time in the entire history of mankind that invention, discovery, dreaming and necessity didnt merely assimilate the new as fuel for the growth of our species.

Take a look around you, the most complex and sophisticated piece of machinary ever created by mankind, one capable of possibly producing blackholes no less, is to be used so leading physicists can discover a few, 2 or 3 I think, basic 'particles' that will prove to them they got their sums correct.
The most focused and concerted grouping of the power of human mind since the days of Heisenburg, Bohr, Einstein etc. and the formulation of Quantum Mechanics! are developing theories based upon observation, that look as if they might be able to answer why, wait for it, electrons have charge...

Yawn

Godhood soon? We are crossing the T's and dotting the I's of our understanding of our cage, recoiling in fear when our fingers slide through the bars. Sure conciousness my prove to be a apart of this, but if you are going to claim its the alpha and omega, and leave it at that, then Godhood is not within our grasp, just mastery at best of the inside of this 'Universe'. Do you see? Do you see how for all the massive advancements of tech, or intense study and contemplation, we are still stumbling around hands out stretched, bumping into things in our own Universe and claiming 'ah now that makes sense'. Its like for 40,000 years this blind guy has been tentativlly feeling all around him, and now he slowly coming to the conclusion 'wait, wait, im inside a square room'. Then you guys come along and say 'your inside consciousness', well thats clever... Pray tell me how consciousness exists? You cant, but you are able to point out how that is my fualt for asking. Except when I think about it, I slowly realise that not only does it simply return me straight back to the thinking I hade been doing for most of my life with regards to God, eternal/infinate existance, self creation etc. and have spent the subsequent time trying to see if formulating a principle of paradoxical requirement offers any validity or food for thought, But that it is the option that offers most in the way of self worth, self importance, self satisfaction, self, self, self.

I dream too Paul, I dream of the time when we can manipulate energy and matter and space time, with our minds, thanks to embedded technology, and live for eternity, but will this make us Gods? Godhood in 50 years?

5 Billion years untill our Sun throws it possibly Earth munching tantrum, im looking that far ahead, I am not seeing Godhood and the ability to exist non-corporeally in the near-medium term, I am playing out in my head 5 Billion years of human evolution, advancement, regression etc.

Damn you guys are right, it IS a trully wonderful thing, but lets be honest, we are still in the information age dreaming and necessity phase, you could compare us to those ancient Bronze Warriors that were looking for Swords that wouldnt bend in combat. Yeah, thats where we are, I think its obvious. We might be close to being able to harnass a tiny little bit more of our knowledge of our Universe, and for sure this will have far reaching consequences, but untill God is found out there, and not in here, we will never be Gods out there.

Hope is Good, truth is better, debate and discussion generates and surpasses them all. I had hoped my 'anger, fire, intelligence, passion, ignorance, rambling, confrontationalism etc.' wouldnt be too much for this site, that certainly does have POTENTIAL, but if all your going to say is, 'Go away Eventhorizen, all you want to do is criticise, and you do it badly' whenever I see you clinging to some kind of dubious, mind boggling, almost pathologically optimistic vision for transcending everything we know, including our own universe, within a couple of decades, that is absolutly certain to occur unless the human species is annihilated. Coupled to some kind of absolutely unarguable, UNDISCUSSABLE, absolute truth regarding everything. And witnessing so many people rallying around offering nothing more than a detailed list of my flaws whenever I reply in a fashion other than applause, well it does leave me just a little bit frustrated.

I remember first finding this community, it was something along the lines of reading something like 'Consciousness is everything, consciousness runs through everything', and I was like wow thats interesting, can you explain what you mean. Every answer to every question has been 'It cant be explained, it cant be understood, its just the way it is.' I spent 5 years of my life trying to shrug off the feeling of absolute certainty at the destruction of our species, and at the same time came to the conclusion that the majority of people were wiling to simply submit to various Gods, claim impossiblity to comprehend, or otherwise blatantly ignore any concerted conscious effort of studying, or trying to contemplate and illuminate existance, and then I come here and find those same mantras repeated incessantly, with an almost violent reaction to questioning or criticism.

Im sure the contents of this post have absolutly no relevancy to 'FUTUREHI', and I would actually be surprised if anyone reads it. Insults and cowardly 'cleverly' disguised mockery, etc. Well sure, it comes with the territory. It would seem 'you all' are hoping this is my last post, so I will try to make it my last, and not spoil 'this' any longer. And by the way im not a she, im male, as my email address seems to have caused some confusion.

Posted by: eventhorizen at March 1, 2006 03:27 AM

what is being discussed here is what every guru, psychologist worth his own salt , and even new-age soccer mom shaman is saying .... the problem however , is that in discussing a life without concepts , you are STILL LISTENING and debating the concepts ... the meaning and so on ... drop it ... entertain yourselves with these guests , dont let them set up shop in your home and run your lives ... theres nothing wrong with trying to find meaning or philosophising ... its just that it is not the truth of your experience , but an abstraction of it .. it is the ego trying to leave its mark on something its never seen ... and when you are done reading this ... forget every word ive said , because it is not the truth ;-) feel the wind , smell her hair , touch the sun ... just be the middle of everything.

Posted by: jiva at March 1, 2006 05:31 AM

eventhorizon:

You are very much entitled to your own views. And, I guess you are entitled to share them with us. I think most would agree though, that when your views so sharply disagree with the beliefs of the majority of the people in a community, constantly trying to argue and discredit everything that community says is beneficial to no one. There is a time when it is courteous to leave the community, or back off a little bit. If you are so firm in your beliefs (I think you have proven that you are), start your own blog, post your thoughts on your own website; you obviously have a lot to say, and that's great. I don't think this is the place for you to say it anymore though. It seems you are using this site as an outlet to express your own thoughts when really, the majority of people here don't want to hear them anymore. I go to one of the most conservative universities in the United States, and my views probably radically disagree with 99% of the students at the school. I do feel the need to express my views, and I often do so; but you will not find me joining in the Young Christian Conservatives meeting and starting an argument about how everything they believe is complete and utter bullshit. There comes a time when you need to back off, and realize that your comments on here are not really benefitting the community at all anymore, just upsetting it's balance. Wishing you all the happiness in the world.

Nick

Posted by: vegenaut at March 1, 2006 11:00 PM

Hey, EventHorizon: Sorry, man! Yeah the "gail" in the e-mail address through me off. Duh! Really sorry 'bout that! Please accept my apologies! (But I did get the Scots thing right...right?) Interesting post. Sometimes I'm also a tad bit dubious if The Planet of the (Naked) Apes will be able to get it's act together, and make the transcension to post-humanity. But we've gotta try. Fred Nietsche had it right when he said "Humanity is a rope between the animal and the superhuman--a rope across a *abyss*..."

Yep, evolution ("...red in tooth & claw...") has brought humanity to this instant in its development. And, yeah, no doubt about it, we're naked apes, all right! But we have the potential to be so much more...!!! As I've tried to emphasize: Technology will someday soon become something not just "out there". At the most basic ontological level, humankind is about to zoom up a trajectory of *merging* and *coalescing* with its technology. The great futurists of the 60's & 70's--such the great (and still kickin'!!) Arthur C. Clarke and Robert Prehoda--foresaw this even back then, that we would coalesce ontologically with our technology, and eventually become transhuman & posthuman. The term "transhuman" is important here. We should retain the ability to take human form, to live human lives, but we'll also have the ability to be and do things, much of which we can now only dimly (if at all) even imagine. IF, that is, we prevail, if we succeed in navigating the next 5-30 years. But there is abundant cause for **realistic**, **reasonable** HOPE--for actually anticipating our successful **prevailing**. Human life and mind seem to be a very integral part of (meta)cosmic evolution. See Gardner's work *Biocosm* and John Smart's work at his website www.singularitywatch.com (aka www.accelerationwatch.com). This was anticipated by Chardin in *The Phenomenon of Man*, as well as by Bucky (Fuller), of course, in his works, most particularly in *Crtiical Path* and its underappreciated sequel, *Cosmography*. The McKenna brothers anticipated it as well, in their classic, *Invisible Landscape*.

But one thing is clear: the Naked Ape called "Man", living on a rather unique planet (see the books *Rare Earth* and *Privileged Planet*), orbiting a typical 2nd- or (probably) 3rd-generation star, in a backwater part of one the outer arms of a typical, medium-sized spiral galaxy in the Virgo Super-Cluster, is now **center-stage** in a (meta)cosmic scenario that we are only just recently beginning to become fully aware-of. Physicists are doing much more, EventHorizon, than merely discovering why electrons have charge. That's mud-puddle masquerading as mainstream. The real cutting-edge stuff is (has been) done by such luminaries as TOM BEARDEN, SAUL-PAUL SIRAG, JACK SARFATTI, just to name a few. We now already have the science to systematically engineer physical reality at its most fundamental level (beyond even nanotech)--See TOM BEARDEN'S stuff. Now it's time for humankind--each & all of us--to put up or shut up. We can do this; we can PREVAIL. I personally am childless, but for all the adorable children now in the world, we MUST PREVAIL--AND WE SHALL.

And, as I've also said before, hang-on: Things will soon be accelerating pell-mell super-exponentially. **PLEASE** study-up on the stuff I've been suggesting over these last 18-20 months or so here, folks; it'll help; you'll be glad ya did... [wink]

"We are the futuremakers. Doomsday has been cancelled. The humane and positive future is ours to make." --J. Peter Vajk, physicist & futurist, *Doomsday Has Been Cancelled* (out of print, but available on the web).

Thank you all. May we all live long & prosper...

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 3, 2006 09:44 AM

Someone much smarter than me once said that "Meaning is Use."

Obliteration of language? Quite the contrary.
Humans are social animals.
It is only through language that our intentionality can be expressed.
There is no private language.

Posted by: Shay at March 3, 2006 05:15 PM

“Creation seems to come out of imperfection. It seems to come out of a striving and a frustration, and this is where I think language came from. It came from our desire to transcend our isolation and have some sort of connection with one another. And it had to be easy when it was just simple survival. Like the word water, we came up with a sound for that, or saber tooth tiger right behind you, we came up with a sound for that. But when it gets really interesting is when we use that same system of symbols to communicate all the abstract and intangible things that we're experiencing. What is frustration? Or what is anger? Or love? When I say love, the sound comes out of my mouth and it hits the other person's ear, travels through this byzantine conduit in their brain, through their memories of love, or lack of love, and they register what I'm saying and they say yes, they understand. But how do I know they understand, because words are inert, they're just symbols, they're dead, you know? And so much of our experience is intangible. So much of what we perceive cannot be expressed. It's unspeakable. And yet, you know when we communicate with one another, and we feel that we've connected, and we think that we're understood, I think we have a feeling of almost spiritual communion. And that feeling might be transient, but I think it's what we live for.”
- _Waking Life_ directed by Richard Linklater

Fulcanelli seems to be telling us, as plainly as possible, that the medium is the message. The argot is the art of light, the core of a Gnostic philosophy expounded so eloquently by Fulcanelli in the paragraph that follows immediately after the art of light statement. "Language," Fulcanelli tells us in that passage, "the instrument of the spirit, has a life of its own - even though it is only a reflection of the universal Idea." This Gnostic meta-linguistic mysticism is the core it seems of illumination itself.

The bait is the means to get the fish where you want it,
catch the fish and you forget the bait.
The snare is the means to get the rabbit where you want it,
catch the rabbit and forget the snare.
Words are the means to get the idea where you want it,
catch on to the idea and you forget about the words.
Where shall I find a man who forgets about words,
and have a word with him?
- Chuang Tzu

Posted by: Connie at March 4, 2006 08:01 AM

hey connie ... i love you by the way , and communication is always done through the heart ... the rest of this is just ritual that we have learnt ... just decoration , including the words . I loved your quote , came at just the right time that i needed it too ... :-)

Posted by: jiva at March 4, 2006 09:41 AM

"i took a moment from my day , and wrapped it up in things you say , and mailed it off to your address ... youll get IT pretty soon unless , the packaging begins to break , and all the points i tried to make , are tossed with thoughts into a bin , time leaks out my mind leaks in" - phish (tom marshall)

Posted by: jiva at March 4, 2006 09:44 AM

EventHorizon: Just re-read your post, man. You obviously mean well. And while I empathize with what Nick/Vegenaut said, I certainly don't want to see you (self- or otherwise) banished from FutureHi. But you seem to be a bit under-informed. Dave Chalmers, Gregg Rosenberg, Saul-Paul Sirag, and Nick Herbert, Tom Bearden, just to name a few that come immediately to my mind, have done pretty good jobs of *progressing* toward an understanding of what consciousness is and how it relates to and interacts with the non-conscious aspects or entities of reality. Is their stuff absolutely *conclusive*--or even, as amongst them, *mutually consistent*--well, perhaps not. But, as I've said, they've made some great strides, some great headway. I would heartily suggest that you check-out this stuff for yourself. Dave Chalmer and Gregg Rosenberg's books are a good place to start, if you can dig rigorous (but well-written) professional philosophy. Nick Herbert's book, *Elemental Mind* provides a good discussion, and includes a good treatment of his buddy/colleague's Saul-Paul Sirag's theory(s). Granted, we have more to do, but the work is progressing.

You also don't seem to appreciate the ***super-exponentially-accelerating*** techno- (and techno-enconomic) evolutionary/development trajectory that we are--or, very plausibly, *seem*--to be on as a planetary civilization and as a species. In this regard, I would respectfully and heartily suggest that more carefully check-out not only Ray Kurzweil's stuff (his website as well as his new book, *The Singularity is Near*), but also John Smart's stuff (see my previous post, above, for the website address). Both Kurzweil and Smart make persuasive, if not conclusive, case for our being on such a **super-exponential** techno-economic developmental trajectory that necessarily entails that future will be rather **different** than the past, even in very basic anthropological/biological terms. A cure for disease/aging-unto-death is in the offing within 50 years tops (but probably, at most, more like 25, +/- 5). But that's just a snowflake (nice one though [wink]) on the very tip-top of techno-evolutionary iceberg (to mix the hell out of some metaphors!). There's all sorts of really awesome, fantastic stuff in the offing, and almost "right around the corner." I'm serious, man, check it all out!

But you're right about government, DER STAT, being the biggest problem looming ahead. We don't want a Rollerball (the original, btw, not the tacky remake) scenario in which Coporations become transnational *de facto* orwellian governments. But we're working to forestall that, along with a lot of other potential crap. Check out James Dale Davidson and Bill Rees-Mogg's book, *The Sovereign Individual*, as well as James Bennett's book *The Anglosphere Challenge*.

Neither Paul nor Chris (lvx23) nor Upwinger, nor myself (and sure-as-hell neither Mr. Neutron or ADBatstone) are "see-no-evil" Pollyannas!!! But all of us are aware of two crucial things: (1) the current techno- and techno-econcomic trajectories (again, see Kurzweil's stuff, as well as Drexler's and Tom Bearden's) offer abundant perfectly *reasonable* cause for HOPE & OPTIMISIM. But, at the same time, there is the possibility for some very uncool (indeed, catastrophically atrocious/horrible) crap to also start ensuing. WE DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN, NOW DO WE?! Hence, this website (among many others, though *this* one is rather unique, as I've argued before recently): It's a clarion call for hope & optimism, but ALSO offers proposals for seeing to it that the bad crap doesn't come-about. It provides us with NEWS (thanks, again, Paul!), it provides us a forum for exchange of info and ideas, news about other websites, projects, etc. And, yeah, since consciousness and intentionality may very well play crucial roles in the months and years to come, it provides us with "mystical" insights, musings, etc. Now, is the latter just bullshit?! Well, no, I don't think so. It's just part-&-parcel of what this site's about, at least occasionally.

I don't think Paul is saying that we can just "think positive thoughts" and everything will turn-out hunky-dory. While there is a kernel of truth to that, I think, to say that is way too oversimplified. Re-read (or read for the first time, if you haven't read it yet) Bucky's superb book *Critical Path*. It's coming down to every individual, every individual human being's consciousness & intention(ality). See also George Leonard's superb book, *Silent Pulse*, one of the greatest, and underappreciated, books about the phase of (trans)human/planetary development we've now entered into. And Chardin's
classic *The Phenomenon of Man* is important here, too. Also important are two somewhat similar (certainly both important and mutually complimentary) books with the same title, **Global Brain**, one by Howard Bloom, and the other by Peter Russell.

Sure, there's a lot of crapola still going on. Africa should be wealthy, with all its natural resources and bright, industrious, entreprenurial people. But the political/jurisprudential instituions are egregiously fucked-up at this time (and, of course, have been....), and so we have warlords, and dictators, and human-atrocity bullshit going on & on (on Africa, btw, everyone needs to read ***George Ayittey's*** truly excellent books--google or dogpile him, or use fetchbook.info, and check out his stuff--it's superb and spot-on!!)

But we now have **feedback loops**, EventHorizon. Apartied and white neo-feudalistic crap ended in South Africa, because world-opinion forced it to. World opinion said enough is e-fucking-nough! Now, of course, South Africa still has a long, long way to go, but there's been at least some improvement. (But, again, be sure and read **George Ayittey's** stuff on Afrcia in general, it is absolutely spot-on and superb). FutureHi is just a superb example, along with other blogs, such as Mike Anissimov's, of using technology to provide a Socractic Forum, a World's Fair of the (Psychedelic) Mind, etc., etc.

With all due respect to you, EventHorizon, I just still can't help but think you really haven't (at least not fully) understood the implications of Drexler, Kurzweil, and Tom Bearden's stuff, among much else. I don't think you've read and understood even many of Paul's (and others') post here--and not just the recent ones, but ones from a year or 2 or more ago. Sure, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fucked-up crap still going-on in the world at this time (duh...), but there are ***umpteen umpteen*** groups here in the U.S.A. and I'm sure over in Britain and elsewhere that are trying to ***do something positive*** about this, that or another bit of the crap that's going on. Trying to (and succeeding in) educating people, informing them, actually pursuing SOLUTIONS to this that or the other problems, whether it be Eli Yudkowsky (I love that brilliant kid--go, Eli, baby, go! Rock on, Kid-O!) at the Singularity Institute striving to bring-forth genuine benevolent non-human super-intelligence, or the GENI Project (google it & check it out), which is striving to get Bucky's worldwide electrical grid to become a reality, or Tom Bearden working to develop and market table-top over-unity electrical energy devices. All that and so much, much, **much more** is going on.

And WHY? You know why, you wascally-wabbit, EventHorizon, you! Yep, it's us Naked Apes **bootstrapping**. Yeah there's assholes galore out there fucking things up (usually government, but occasionally also private-corporate, **functionaries**). Government is FORCE, and so, since it's a hammer, it goes around smashing things, and since even the Anglosphere (much more--rather than less-- the rest of the world) is currently embroiled/embedded in neo-mercatilist, corporate-fascist, "mixed economy" welfare/warfare military-industrial crony-capitalist bull-fucking-shit (see, again, I implore everyone, Pouzzner's excellent website **Architecture of Modern Political Power**), then a whole ****lot**** of things, processes, institutions, goods, services, etc. are (currently) ***sub-fucking-optimal*** (again, DUH...). But this can change in the not to distant future, if we, each or us, play our cards right. Things CAN, and hopefully/probably WILL, get BETTER.

I really think, EventHorizon, that you're not taking the super-exponentiall acceleration into account. You really need to factor that in. That's why a lot of us here at FutureHi are optimistic. But acceleration also means that things could pretty soon get pretty fucking nasty if not atrocious. Which is what we want to stave-off, head-off, preclude, render nugatory (as good ol' would-be acid-legalizing conservative catholic pundit Bill Buckley might say...[wink])...We can prevent/preclude the bad shit, and bring on the good stuff...but, and you're right about this, we have to become active(ists), we have to start writing and monitoring our Congresscritters and Parlimentcritters (which is what we're fucking **supposed** to Madisonianly/Jeffersonianly **do** anyway!!!). And it's because of the super-exponential acceleration that I've been (Mosaicly?) howling in the wilderness that WE ONLY HAVE A WINDOW OF 5 TO--MAYBE--15 YEARS TO START GETTING THIS SHIT RIGHT--OR WE MIGHT BE COOKED!! Things will either start getting better pretty soon, or they very well may start getting pretty fucking nasty/terrible pretty fucking soon. But I sincerely think (not just "believe") that the probability, or likelihood of the former is significantly greater than the latter--but it's precisely **because** of folks getting informed, getting active(ist), etc. WE CAN **PREVAIL**, FOLKS. WE HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE/OBLIGATION TO ALL THE INNOCENT CHILDREN OF THE WORLD TO SEE TO IT THAT WE **PREVAIL**, SO THAT THEY (AND WE, TOO, HOPEFULLY) CAN FLOURISH IN A TRANS/POST-HUMAN WORLD THAT IS PELL-MELL SUPER-EXPONENTIALLY COMING TO BE IN THE OFFING...

So, hey, give me some feedback, big guy! Everyone, give me some feedback. Sure there's crap going on, but let's see what we can do about transcending that, shall we...!?!?????

And a big ol' ***FNORD*** to all, and to all a Good Afternoon...[wink]

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 4, 2006 11:17 AM

Requested feedback MCP2012. I'm loving my current sychronicity with this site and the people contributing to it - whether we seem to be in alignment or not. I was going to write to you personally, MCP2012 and ask if you'd suggest a reading list for someone who is not up on the more techo stuff especially - me. And here it is! You've mentioned these books in many other posts but this is a nice summary. Thanks! I will get reading. Lots to learn though and it's feel like so little time. (By the way, has anyone noticed that time seems to be speeding up or something??? Haha)

The synchronicity of your post to my needs segues well into this discussion re language and communication. Did I unconsciously/passively send you a psychic request that you seemingly picked up on? Did I pick up that these things were to be discussed and arrive at FutureHi at the right time? Did we communicate on some level of which we are not aware? Or not.

How much do we humans really understand about communication? I think humans will look back and realise that our current understanding of how we do communicate, and how we can communicate, as humans is severely limited. I've always thought that Buckminster Fuller's intense meditation (years) on language around the time of his daughter's death was a very important lesson for us all. The fact that that subject became of such importance to him at that time, when there were so many other things he could have pondered, seems to be a message for us all to look at our language and how we use it. A simple example of Buckminster's exacting syntax is that we don't move 'up and down', we move 'in and out' from the earth's centre. 'In and out' instead of 'up and down' is a huge difference in our relationship to our planet and our spatial orientation, our geocentricity. Imagine the paradigm shift, if a majority of the world's population absorbed and became aware of that concept.

On Michael Parkinson's talk show years ago, (maybe even 20 years ago - he's been at this communicating game for a while) I saw an 'important modern philosopher' interviewed (can't remember his name - can anyone help?) and MP asked him what he thought was the worst human invention and he said 'Language!'. He felt it was a limiting thing and the cause of most trouble. (I understood that he was referring to spoken and written language as opposed to other kinds of communication.) Tower of Babel?? Cellux, can you illuminate here? I don't know much about it, maybe you do?

Connie's quote from Richard Linklater sums up the fact that there is so much potential for misunderstanding but when communicating does work and one feels understood (we are 'standing' in the same place on the same 'ground') it does feel so good, transcendent even.

Ask someone to tell you what the first table they visualise is when you say the word 'Table'. Most people will say it is the table they grew up with, or a table that they currently have. Here, there is not potential for a big problem because the table I see and the table you see have enough in common (flat re things can be placed upon it, legs re stability, it's orientation parallel to the ground and working with/against gravity - all very table-like) that we can 'commune' our table idea and this 'simple-level' language functions. It's when we get into the biggies like 'love' or 'consciousness' etc that the gaps appear and we are pulled apart from each other by our own minds - that's when the problems (eg war) kick in. We weren't born with language remember just the desire to communicate. Language is just a code we've been taught and our ability to use it well depends upon how well we were taught and our desire to improve and examine our usage. So... is language inherently problematic (afore-mentioned modern philosopher) or is it our careless usage as Bucky would suggest. As Shay also said, that someone much smarter than her said, (who?) 'Meaning is Use'.

I agree with Shay that language won't be obliterated, whether spoken or other. It IS a way to express our intentionality. Great concept. But I do think there is private language. (Shay wrote: 'There is no private language") Won't there always be a private language (internal dialogue). Although this 'private language' is the place where the gap and misunderstandings occur isn't it a necessary place which is source of individuality and creativity too.

Here is a quote from Colin P Sissons' book, 'Breath of Life', "My own teacher Michael, gave me a wonderful lesson on viewpoints when he once asked, 'How many rooms are there here - where we are sitting?' The four of us students looked at each other, puzzled as to what the master was talking about. After we had given what we thought to be the answer, and one of the more advanced students had said he thought there were five rooms, which totally perplexed me, Michael continued, 'Very good, but there are six rooms here....there is one for how each of us perceive it...and then there is the real one. You must never forget that as you move your point of view, so will your universe change'.

The Age of Aquarius is the age of communication. The Aquarius meme refers to the group and the individual. MCP2012, I think this is one of the ways that 'the crapola' will be transcended. What we are all doing now, here, at this site. In the prevailing paradigm one leader can sway a mass of people (eg witness the performance art of GW Bush) but eventually (soon, please) it will be a group effort. No one person will have the answer or will have the power. That is what I hope. The ego's needs and the group's needs must be in equilibrium and then we will transcend, together.

I hope this large usage of language has conveyed some useful meaning. I think I should now go and visit this guy that Connie wrote about. 'Where shall I find a man who forgets about words, and have a word with him?' I think Jiva might know him.

Posted by: thIsisReaLLYhapPEniNg at March 4, 2006 06:19 PM

"You also don't seem to appreciate the ***super-exponentially-accelerating*** techno- (and techno-enconomic) evolutionary/development trajectory that we are--or, very plausibly, *seem*--to be on as a planetary civilization and as a species. In this regard, I would respectfully and heartily suggest that more carefully check-out not only Ray Kurzweil's stuff (his website as well as his new book, *The Singularity is Near*), but also John Smart's stuff (see my previous post, above, for the website address). Both Kurzweil and Smart make persuasive, if not conclusive, case for our being on such a **super-exponential** techno-economic developmental trajectory that necessarily entails that future will be rather **different** than the past, even in very basic anthropological/biological terms. A cure for disease/aging-unto-death is in the offing within 50 years tops (but probably, at most, more like 25, +/- 5). But that's just a snowflake (nice one though [wink]) on the very tip-top of techno-evolutionary iceberg (to mix the hell out of some metaphors!). There's all sorts of really awesome, fantastic stuff in the offing, and almost "right around the corner." I'm serious, man, check it all out!"

I dont disagree with the Singularity in principle. Nanotechnology is undeniably part of the pathway to 'Godhood' or 'apotheosis'.

Where I disagree, or have some trouble accepting, is how the development, evolution and emergence of an as yet non-existant (outside of research labs?) technology is going to emerge into the world of today and tomorrow, and firmly plant the end of that road in our hands.

Im not arguing because its great fun to rant, shout, argue and insult, I may be arguing out of ignorance, which sure is to my own embarresment.
I see the emergance of nanotechnology into the world for the first time, being dependant on its ability to make profit, and its safety (which your Government will decide). The first nanotech to be available to humanity probably isnt going to be some kind of reality manipulating neural implant, but some basic, profitable 'thing'.
However to achieve the Singularity, will we not require like you say, continued economic and technological growth? Can this be guarenteed long enough for us to solve all our problems in the future? Nanotechnology may very well play a part in the generation of energy, and the production of food, and in medicine etc. when it FIRST appears. However its appearance (not its absolute potential) is surely going to bring about its own problems. Take medicine again, more people living vastly longer is going to be a vast economic drain, and I mean considering nanotechnologies first 'foray' into the field of medicine. It isnt in itself going to solve energy crisis, energy production, when it first appears in these fields.

Our current 'world' appears to me to have very little to absolutly no sustainability, and unless something dramatic occurs, very short life expectancy. Now when we consider the 'worlds' reluctance to change 'itself' in any meaningful way, doubts in my mind appear over our ability, emergance of nanotechnology included, to address these issues in a way that is going to lead to even better times than we experiance now.

We do have a very limited timeframe in which to address issues like those I mentioned in my previous post. Nanotechnology will have to emerge and develop. I see 'exponentially increasing techno-economic trends' coming ONLY at the expense of sustainability and longevity, not of economic models, but of our planets ability to sustain this current civilisation.

Ill try to make myself clear, energy and the 'biology of gaia', meaning every structure of our planet, us, and every system within it. These two things put a constraint on our civilisation, because our primary interest is to our comfort and happiness in our rather short lives. Coupled to this you have the controlling forces within our civilisation, being corporations and other economic juggernauts concerned with the accumulation of wealth, and Governments of groups of people living in regions of land, concerned with getting the 'best' out of life/world for themselves. These add further constraints on our civilisation.
When nanotechnology emerges, it is not going to immediatly present a solution to either energy, or allowing our civilisation to proceed as it is regardless of the 'biology of gaia'. Our 'world' does not want to change. Individuals may want to change, but the focus of our civilisation in general as a whole entity will remain the same. It will be from this civilisation that nanotech emerges, and it will be within this civilisation that it develops and evolves. Thus I can see the 'possibility' of nanotechnology 'helping' to avoid some kind of 21st-22nd century cataclysm, and allowing us the time and space to follow your 'techno-economic curves' into the singularity, but I dont share overwhelming optimism that this is necessarilly 'the case', regardless.

If you could suggest some books or online sources for the emergance of nanotechnology into 'the world today' I would be absolutly delighted (maybe a couple that deal specifically with this subject?). I already share the view that this pathway 'can' lead to supremecy over our universe in every way, indeed I am also 'aware' of the 'end of the universe' scenarios that mankinds decendants should they survive that long will have to 'deal with', and I am not driven 'right now' into reading that kind of material.

One final point, conceived from my lacking knowledge, is that should nanotechnology provide us with a 'repreive' from infrastructural and biospherical collapse, and push us forward in the next century to a new level of civilisation, does this automaticlly imply Godhood? Will we not simply be managing our world and balancing our own existances with our surroundings via 'hyper-tech' (not hyperspace tech, this im very sceptical of in the 'short term')? While at the same time thinking long and deep? Will we not have reached a plateau of being immensly powerful over nature herself, and deeply conscienscous (sp?) but perhaps alone with a solar system, galaxy or universe at our disposal? Will the question 'how is it all here?' still be irrelevant then?

Posted by: eventhorizen at March 4, 2006 07:01 PM

thIsisReaLLYhapPEniNg: You're very welcome for the bibliographic stuff. Please check-out my other bibliographic rants-&-raves elsewhere in the archives. Anything by K. Eric Drexler would be well worth your while, then Hans Moravec, Ray Kurzweil. Plus the other stuff.

EventHorizon: THANK YOU! NOW YOU'RE TALKIN'! YOUR LATEST POST IS PRECISELY THE SORT OF POST I'VE BEEN HOPING TO ELICIT FROM YOU!

You're right, we human beings are currently struggling against--yet also **embedded in**--various and sundry fucked-up institutions, memes, social protocols, etc. If I may wax more or less libertarian for a moment: The vast majority of the social-institutional and social-process CRAP we're knee-deep (if not hip-deep!!) in at the moment can be traced back to GOVERNMENT--the STATE!! And, of course, individuals and groups ***using the state for their own gain*** (called in the literature **rent-seeking**) while concurrently screwing everyone else (i.e., the public/society at large and in-general)

There's nothing wrong, however, with individuals wanting to improve their material well-being: that's as natural a rain in a thunder shower! But it may be the case that we can modify social(-economic) institutions to provide wealth for all. There are, however, basic economic prinicples that need to be taken into account. ***Incentives, and thus incentive-*structures* MATTER***. There are several good intros to basic economic prinicples and EVERYONE taking part in this community needs to familarize themselves with them. A good intro bibliography would be:

1. *Common Sense Economics: What Everyone Should Know About Wealth And Prosperity*, by James D. Gwartney, Richard Stroup, & Dwight R. Lee (Hardcover,194 Pages, St Martins Pr, January 2005 ISBN 031233818X) This book also covers the rudiments of public-choice theory, which is basically economic prinicples applied to political-science questions.

2. Henry Hazlitt, Economics in One Lesson: 50th Anniversary Edition (Fox & Wilkes publishing, 1996)

3. Milton M. Shapiro, Foundations of the Market-Price System. (Paperback Univ Pr of Amer April 1985 ISBN 0819145432) One of the best textbooks on basic economics ever written, in my judgment.

Then one needs to move-on to basic jurisprudence and political economy. Here, the *locus-classic*, one of the most profound, far-reaching, and magnificent treatises ever written, is, as I've been saying recently before, Friedrich Hayek's (Nobel Laureate in Economics, 1974) magisterial 3-volume work, *Law, Legislation and Liberty*:

Vol. 1 Rules and Order, Vol. 2 The Mirage of Social Justice, Vol. 3 The Political Order of a Free People.

Yep, it's 3-volumes, but, it is exceptionally well-written, yet profound, and reads fairly quickly. This treatise transdisiplinarily integrates economics, jurisprudence, basic political prinicples, and basic anthropological, psychological and biological principles into a grand theory of social/institutional evolution. Reading the works of James Buchanan (Nobel Laureate in Economics, 1986), and Milton Friedman (Nobel Laureate in Economics, 1976) would also be good here (see Friedman's *Free to Choose* and *Capitalism & Freedom*). Also Hayek's own *The Road to Serfdom* is excellent. It is essentially the study of the abuse of reason in social affairs. In connection with Ludwig von Mises and Hayek's demonstration of the impossibility of economic calculation under socialism, see David R. Steele, *From Marx to Mises: Post-Capitalist Society and the Challenge of Economic Calculation* (Open Court Press, December 1986 ISBN 0812690168)

5. Almost anything by economist and economic historian Douglas C. North on the development of economic institutions as they relate to techno-economic progress/growth. See also the work of Joel Mokyr, especially *Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress* (Oxford U. Pr) and *Gifts of Athena: Historical Origins of the Knowledge Economy* (Princeton U Pr).

6. In the same vain as those works listed in #5 are: Nathan Rosenberg & L.E. Birdzell, *How the West Grew Rich: The Economic Transformation of the Industrial World* (Paperback, Basic Books May 1987 ISBN 0465031099) and William Bernstein, *Birth of Plenty: How the Prosperity of the Modern World Was Created* (Hardcover 350 Pages McGraw-Hill March 2004 ISBN 0071421920).

After this background, one should read both of Drexler's books very carefully: *Engines of Creation* and *Unbounding the Future*. Both of which give very careful consideration of how nanotech can and should be integrated into our (current) society. Drexler ***explicitly references **Hayek's** work***, btw, in an endnote. Drexler is basically a Hayekian liberal as well as an ace nanotech engineer. And, of course, Kurzweil's stuff, along with Bucky Fuller's stuff on ephemeralization is crucial.

As I've said, the work of Louis O. Kelso is very important. His concern is primarily in the way capital formation and capital *acquisition* is **finacnced**. He was a investment-lawyer also trained in investment economics. He's basically a classical liberal, but would modify current institutions to allow for the acquisition of capital (such as robotic & cybernated systems) via credit-financing rather than collateralized financing, so as to broaden the ownership of (eventually total nano-cybernated) capital, and provide all humans with an income-off-flow from their cybernated capital. Google him and check out his works.

In terms of Economic Analysis of Law, and the Economics of Jurisprudence, see the works of Richard Epstein, especially:

1. Takings: Private Property and the Power of Eminent Domain

2. Simple Rules for a Complex World

3. Bargaining With the State

4. Principles for a Free Society: Reconciling Individual Liberty With the Common Good

5. Skepticism and Freedom: A Modern Case for Classical Liberalism

The best works on philosophical jurisprudence, and addition to Epstein, is Randy Barnett:

1. Structure of Liberty: Justice and the Rule of Law (Oxford U Pr)

2. Restoring the Lost Constitution: The Presumption of Liberty (Princeton U. Pr)

Also important is Law Prof Larry Lessig's stuff:
*The Future of Ideas* (Vintage pb) and *Free Culture* --check 'em out...

Finally, the work of TOM BEARDEN & SAUL-PAUL SIRAG are very important. Google or dogpile TOM BEARDEN, and check out his website and books. VERY IMPORTANT. For SAUL-PAUL SIRAG, see his appendix to Jeff Mishlove's *Roots of Consciousness*, entitled "Hyperspatial Crystalography."

Gee, MCP2012, do you really expect me read all that?!?! Well...*YEAH*, at least eventually. We have to know how we got into this mess, and basic transhistorical principles (basic economics, basic jurisprudence, basic political economy) in order to figure out WHAT TO *DO* (WHAT TO ADVOCATE, WHAT TO PUT IN PLACE) TO MAKE THINGS BETTER, AND TO FACILITATE THE INTEGRATION OF THE COMING TECHNOLGIES INTO A (TRANS)*HUMANE* CIVILIZATION.

We have to actively advocate, actively pursue, actively DEMAND the optimal instantiation and integration of the coming technologies. We can do this, EventHorizon. Join the Foresight Institute. Write your ParlimentCritters. Make some noise... write some letters-to-editors or op-ed pieces for Scottish newspapers. Check out Center for Responsible Nanotechnology. Correspond with Hans Moravec, ask him how we should bring about robotic abundance for all. Send people to Jim Lewis's "Robotopia" page. DEMAND THAT WE GET ROBOTOPIA--OR BUST..!

I'm tired, I gotta go home. Hope this helps. Will contribute more later. Give me feedback, Paul, EventHorizon, all of y'all!!!

We have to have a background of theory and knowledge from which to advocate the proper institutional/social changes...but we CAN DO THIS! Groups already exist that are doing so, at least in part. You're right, EventHorizon, business-as-usual bullshit will inertially continue for a while and will try to maintain itself. But it'll be swamped by...well, **US**, by informed, enlightened folks who just want to do the right thing(s) and expect the same of everyone else (including government and corporate jamokes and assholes...).

Hope this helps, or at least makes *some* sense. Your most recent post, EventHorizon, is your real entre into FutureHi. You see the potential for good, for greatness, for transcension. But you also see the crap, the cronyism, the crud, etc. But scientists are, as we speak, gaining gaining gaining on true seed AI, on curing disease and aging-unto-death, on perfecting nanotech, on the development of abundant free energy from zero-point (vacuum-fluctuation) energy source(s).

Also see Alan Shipman's excellent book, **The Market Revolution & Its Limits: A Price for Everything** (Routledge).

Gotta go (for now...)

Your concerns are VALID, EventHorizon. But WE SHALL **PREVAIL**. WE'RE (HUMANITY IS) CENTER-STAGE, NOW, IN A META-COSMIC DEVELOPMENTAL TRAJECTORY: See Gardner's **Biocosm** and check-out John Smart's stuff (see reference in previous post[s]). Integrate Gardner's and Smart's stuff with Bearden's stuff...

My love and admiration and respect to all my colleagues here at FutureHi. Paul, ya did (and continue doing) good, Kid-O...wink...

Sleep tight, y'all...

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 5, 2006 01:14 AM

Written in the 1970s, the visions of Lame Deer and Sun Bear seem to be a logical extension of current events. After all, even prophecies conform to the laws of cause and effect. The difference between the prophet and the scientist is that the scientist relies on the process of deduction, while the prophet simply dreams. The scientist functions out of the conscious mind, the prophet from the unconscious.

Human history is a story of transformation. We change our physical world through technology and our metaphysical world through religion. Many of our present difficulties arise out of the fact that our physical world is shifting faster than our ability to assimilate the changes. Concurrently, our spiritual life has atrophied from inattention. Our bodies and our spirits are off balance and out of sync. This results in feelings of confusion, impotence and stress. Anything we do under these conditions will be less than optimum. For our own wellbeing we must transform ourselves, and remake our world.
Every place on earth, like every person, has a distinct character. Perhaps it is time to listen to the spiritual elders of this continent when they implore us to honor Mother Earth. Perhaps, with Western ingenuity and native wisdom we can cross the threshold into a new earth.

And this is why Future Hi is so very important in today’s world, right brain and left brain coming together as one. And particle by particle create a new world that lets us all become butterflies of the future. All of you here are so very important.

From my andanvdo (heart) to hisgoli (your head).

Eventhorizon stick around for the ride, it’s gonna be wild.

Posted by: Connie at March 5, 2006 04:59 AM

Not quite as concise as simply writing "42", but way more useful.

"In those subtle moments we sometimes drift into, when time slips away and life stands silent and majestic..."
For me the most memorable one of these times was during a solar eclipse. I, my co-workers, and all the surrounding wildlife fell silent as we stood outside, and listened.

Most of what you wrote seems to connect with my experiences [actually I couldn't find any part of it that didn't]. It probably says something about how fundamentally similar all our lives are.

"The best paths to such hyper-perception will seek the obliteration of language and self-reference coupled with an aggressive will to experience the fullness of life."
This conclusion is, for me, the most interesting bit. I think this is what I have been trying to do for a while. I was, but am no longer, surprised by the social pressures to prevent people from doing this. I have been working on how to get around the problem. The idea of communicating using artifacts is something I am currently thinking about.

The "show me your code" approach taken by free software projects seems to help keep things moving. Some of the other communities I have been involved in have gotten bogged down in disputes over meaning. I often suspect that this just reflects differences in context (motives, experiences, etc).

Cheers,

Sunface

Posted by: Sunface at March 5, 2006 05:41 PM

EventHorizon, and Paul, and the rest of you guys & gals: I left-out a book or 2 last night on the post above: Please also check-out

Thomas Sowell, *Knowledge & Decisions* 2nd ed. with a new preface (Basic Books, 1996) This is one of the BEST intros to economic thinking, and indeed, to thinking in a **Hayekian** sort of way that is available today. It is absolutely superb. Sowell is a very good and engaging writer. PLEASE read this book, EventHorizon, Paul, et al. Then PLEASE let me know what ya think...[wink]

Love always,

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 5, 2006 06:18 PM

MCP2012,

We are coming in from the desert – blind and you are a - bebopping all over these issues.

I think many on this site may be related to the tale of Walter von Stoltzing; And you are Sachs!

You must climb Everest in your downtime for you seem fluid and nearly fluent in every field relating to futurology.

Yours is in absolute harmony with Future-Hi's zeitgeist and to be.

EH above brings about a good point: “Knowledge isnt some kind of self propogating entity.” Indeed, society at large is not simply “there” like some natural fact but must be produced. Thus it’s like we’re pumping bellows.

And evolutionary psychology seems to suggest that change comes about not in smooth contours but in violent, disjointed leaps forward.

Meaning and experience; What two more important words are there?

One is the "workout" that "hits" the muscle group and the other is the anabolic drive wherein adaptation occurs and the "spring" - in this case - of human potentiality is all the more powerful.

Not easy as life provides distractions to our all - too lullable bodies(a crucifix).

And a market culture that taps and magnifies this via the weal of technology to social disintegration.

Hence, in my view, the market-advertisers will be ranked in disrepute, next to Auschwitz and the like despots.

One good mantra: “Fully employ both the right and left sides of your brain or be irrelevant.”

Time and physical incapacities have kept me from making anything more than the most cursory read-over of only 25% of the articles contained herein.

Paul mentions a mass of dissatisfied readers(the super-reductive rationalists) who have: “moved on”.

It is supposed that in all influential(both near and long term) fields of study, which must always have “critical analysis” as rule, role and structure to wean out nonsense, it is the “espirit axiomatic” that: “You’re either out in front defining just what the problems are else you’re overtaken by them.”

Thus there is a perceived danger of the site’s obsolescence for some. Is this true?

The phenomenon of consciousness remains; and it has generated technology(!) but the old areas of the mind smell this. What will they do? What is the extent of their physical influence?

Certainly America, in spite of the “glob of everything” that she is, has, particularly in her working hours, keen perception on necessity in the face of the “upward spiral” uncovered by the 18th Century Enlightenment when she’s not pursuing the unfortunate “addiction to stimulation”.

Average folk are far more flexible and institutions still set much of the “dancing tune” via funding and legal parameterizing of these concerns, ie. futurology, addressed here.

How will “history” get around them unless it becomes…?

And the site’s not reduced to futurology.

Unleash the awesome potentialities of the human **Da-sein** for God's sake come what may! Laugh at danger!(provided that there is an overall **care** to the human project)

Posted by: Scroll1 at March 5, 2006 06:28 PM

Thank you, Scroll1, I'm tremendously HONORED. I seem to recall a "Sachs" character from Thomas Mann's *The Magic Mountain*, but the character name "Walter von Stoltzing" doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps you can edify me. No, please don't anyone here think that I think I'm somehow better or more enlightened than the rest. Not at all. I just happen to have studied both widely and deeply in my 47 year and 11 months on this planet. But I'm ignorant as hell in a WHOLE LOT of ways and in a WHOLE LOT of areas of knowledge, believe you me!!

I have always been, like Bucky (with no implied comparison of stature, much less intellect, intended just now), a GENERALIST, in an age of (oftentimes *over*-)SPECIALIZATION. I wouldn't say I'm fluent in all the necessary areas of futuristics, but perhaps one could say that I reasonably well-informed and conversant across approx. a half-dozen or so disciplines that are more & more overlapping anyway. But as I've said before in a post about 2-4 weeks (or maybe more) ago, I'm nothing particularly special, intellectually, except perhaps to a very limit extent that I see transdisciplinary relationships and patterns, and can project and extrapolate stuff sometimes a bit better than many can. But even (for me to say) that gives me pause, as it seems way too immodest to say that. The authors I've listed here and before in other posts, such as Pete Hendrickson of www.LostHorizons.com, can, in many ways, run rings around lil ol' me (believe me!!)

The other person's stuff to check out, btw, is, again JAMES ALBUS' stuff (who derives his ideas from Louis O. Kelso, btw...).

Gotta go for now...I shall always be thrilled and honored by any feedback. I hope y'all will try to read some of this stuff, as I think it may really be beneficial toward enabling us to "put our heads together" and really start coming up with activist proposals/solutions...

EventHorizon, stick around, 'mate!

THANKS, again, Paul, for this website; you rock, Kid-O!

Love to all...

Posted by: MCP2012 at March 5, 2006 08:54 PM

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