I believe this to be true (that your reality is defined by what you believe), but I'd like to add some personal notes to it.

If we define belief to be an unshakeable convinction, an inner knowledge of something to be true - this is the faith which can move mountains, this is the kind of belief which can really affect and transform one's everyday reality, this is the kind of faith which really determines the after-life experience in the "bardos" -, then I find it to be VERY difficult - perhaps even impossible - to come to such a belief by the use of the human intellect or the practice of any spiritual discipline alone. It's true that one can practice a certain belief-system, saturate one's brain in the corresponding teachings every day and then, after a while, one may begin to really feel and experience the results of that practice in everyday life. But my personal experience is that this kind of "belief" does not always pass the test of real-life experience. Most of these beliefs have a "working limit": they tend to break down when Life tests them in areas of the human soul which they don't know anything about, when Life goes deeper than what these beliefs can reach. And Life does do that, to show us that our beliefs are limited and that we shall continue our search.

I could say that these belief systems tend to break down in "extreme" situations because they do not have the necessary support from the "other side", or even if they have support, that is only of a limited nature (although even that might appear very comforting and awe-inspiring to us, after all that's how we become hooked.)

I always wanted something that is Absolute, in the fullest sense of the word, something which never leaves me, something on which I can count, something which - by studying its teachings and following its law - never ceases, but always increases in knowledge and wisdom, which kind of "ignites" itself once I really gather the courage to step onto its path.

After a lot of seeking, I finally found my personal Absolute in Christianity, whose most important statement is that God manifested himself in human history in the form of Jesus Christ, in order to rebalance the cosmic equation whose imbalance - without his intervention - would have made it IMPOSSIBLE for us to reach the heavens again. By his love, we have a shortcut now, which only waits for us to grab it and then - by his power - it immediately puts us back on track to our heavenly home (on this Earth or a new one, I don't know but I don't care; this is not my task to think about any more, fortunately :-).

Here is one of my favorite quotes from the Book, which gives a hint about what this is all about:

"A Samaritan woman came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me some water to drink.” (For his disciples had gone off into the town to buy supplies.) So the Samaritan woman said to him, “How can you – a Jew – ask me, a Samaritan woman, for water to drink?” (For Jews use nothing in common with Samaritans.)

Jesus answered her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who said to you, ‘Give me some water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” “Sir,” the woman said to him, “you have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do you get this living water? Surely you’re not greater than our ancestor Jacob, are you? For he gave us this well and drank from it himself, along with his sons and his livestock.”

Jesus replied, “Everyone who drinks some of this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

(What I really want to say to you is that never stop searching until you find the Light - and you will know it - and be honest to yourselves: don't take something which is limited for the Everything. Fortunately, we are constructed in such a way that we can never believe the False totally, with our totality. Just like Darth Vader. :-)

Posted by: cellux at February 21, 2006 01:22 AM

Interesting, Cellux. That's the first interpretation of Jesus' story I've ever heard, from a believer, that actually sounds intelligible. Would love to talk to you, if you have the time? Replace 'Spam' with 'Cellux' to email.

Posted by: Marc Forrester at February 21, 2006 04:55 AM

Lets say, for the sake of arguement, I agree that consciousness is the fount of all things. How does consciousness itself exist?

And there is the heart of the matter. This question you shall avoid, you shall cry irrelevant, you shall cry meaningless. Atleast that has been my experiance with these kinds of topics.

It has been apparent to me for some time that the greatest mystery of this 'everything' is not 'what it is', but 'how it is able to be'.

It is only by focusing on 'how it is able to be' that we can ever hope to finally rid ourselves of the 'answers' that are not answers, that spring forth more questions that are then left unanswered, that are then refused to be answered.

Let me ask you, does a consciousness that simply exists, SATISFY your curiosity? When my Great Grandmother, God rest her soul, started telling me stories when I was barely out of the cradle, of God that created the World, that was the START of my curiosity, not the end of it. This all being fount of all that is, does not have to justify its presence to you? I am amazed, when God says to me, 'I am God, the creator of everything you see, everything that is, I am the source and the creation.' I am going to say 'Thats nice God, but I have always wanted to know how you got here.'

Multidimensionalty, forgive me for being ignorant, would appear to be merely a new, more complete, vision of our Universe unlocked by the observation and contemplation of our 'reality'.
So instead of the 4 dimensions we experiance, there is actually a whole bunch more, meaning tremendous implications.

Pray tell, how this helps to, in anyway, determine the Absolute Ultimate? We dont have the slightest clue how 'far' our universe 'is' from the true ultimate. We may simply find ourselves observing a continuous unbreaking chain of structures, never once being able to break free of the 'material' of our existance, the structures and laws within which it resides, and the 'cradles' holding and allowing our existances to be.
It interesting, but if your destination is absolute truth, then you better find a faster method of 'transport' than physical science for the time being.

There is a fundamental problem, in my mind, with any entity that simply is, and that is that it is there.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 21, 2006 11:24 AM

Thank you Paul, I really needed to hear those words. Seriously, thanks.

Posted by: Phil at February 21, 2006 04:11 PM

Paul, that was one of the best posts in a long time, deeply true, and now resonating strongly.

And that quote from Lilly-- one of my favorites -- was immortalized by the Shamen about 10 years ago in a song called 'The Moment,' where it is rephrased: "Each new belief is a limit itself to be transcended."
Not that that's important -- I just always get a smile seeing that quote, or hearing it in that song. Its something we all need vitally to take to heart.

And you're right about what you said regarding the Imagination -- I've experienced it for myself. Its liberating.

Peace to you and yours ...

Posted by: Upwinger at February 21, 2006 06:38 PM

"You are co-creator of Infinite Omniverses. You can relax now, there is nothing to loose. You are already your higher self, all you have to do is let go and just be."

Except that might not be the way it actually is, even if belief in it is the path to the highest fulfillment of the self that is possible 'today'.

You start off by claiming, correctly, that if one believes in something, something that elevates them to Godhood, that in their relative existance, in their perceived reality, they will be something that is Godlike.
How many people that believe they can fly survive the experiment to prove it? With this 'Godhood' there is no proof beyond the answers of Death, so if you if you have had 'experiances' or 'visions' that only enhance your beleif that your belief is true, then yes in your mind you will be all that you believe, and your beleif can never be shattered, because if you are wrong your consciousness will be obliterated.

But how is this other anything than the ultimate in avoiding the truth? You parents gave you life, there is no way you can claim that your relative existance is all that matters. Maybe in your mind it is all that matters, that same mind that tells you you are God and creator of infinate TRUE existances.

"You are co-creator of Infinite Omniverses. You can relax now, there is nothing to loose. You are already your higher self, all you have to do is let go and just be."

The only infinate omniverses I create are the ones inside my head. I would far rather study the origins of the one I inhabit, than glory in the existance of the ones within my mind ;)

"Instead of matter being primary, and the source of everything we know, including mind; consciousness becomes primary, and the source of everything, including matter, as we know it. "

No consciousness becomes the source of our result of the perception of the external.

Did you know Paul, that the speed of light is different in a vacuum than it is traveling through glass?
"New paradigms stand or fall according to their ability to account for persistent anomalies, and incorporate new findings. The emerging new superparadigm accounts for consciousness—an intractable anomaly for the old model, remember. It offers radically new perspectives on some of the most perplexing problems in contemporary physics. And, most significantly, points towards a resolution of one of the oldest challenges of all—the reconciliation of the scientific worldview with the spiritual."

It doesnt account for consciousness, it perverts views and works of philosophy to place consciousness firmly at the centre of all things. You pervert Kant, who claimed the 'self' to be a kind of hall of mirrors, twisting and altering ones observations according to ones experiance, and you use this AS PROOF that consciousness is the root of everything?

It is semantics pushing forward a WRONG concept. Consciousness may well be the root of why some people see an act as wrong, and others and act as good. But what about all the aspects people completely agree upon? Such as ones height and weight? If I create my height and weight, why Am i not a Giant? Because if I claim so I get locked up in a mental institute!

"A noetic science — a science of consciousness and the world of inner experience"

Think of this Paul, how hard is it for you to mould the external world around you into the world you keep so close to your heart. View your last 3 posts Paul, there is your answer. You are only God of the worlds you create in your mind. If that is where you are comfortable then so be it. But do not claim, and provide such proof, that my mind is that such God of the world that granted me my very existance, because the twisted concept of 'individual' can be abused to allude to such.

I am certainly no God of this world around me at this very moment.

I know my views will be extravagantly and expertly shredded, but I am asking you to be careful, very careful in finding the 'proof' for your views. Be very careful in not putting forward another polluted vision, when there is so much potential here.

Be careful.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 21, 2006 07:22 PM

Paul,

I really love reading your pieces; they resonate so deeply within me. I fantasize all the time, and I feel lost because I live for these fantasies, whereas others live for reality. I'm in a vicious cylce; the more I fantasize the more I want to realize my fantasies, and yet, they seem so unachievable. I can identify with your recent emotional struggle; it is how I've been feeling virtually all of my adult life.

P.S. Eventhough I don't know any of the people on this board, in some ways I feel closer to you all than to anyone else. I hope all of us here find infinite sublimity some day.

Posted by: D at February 21, 2006 09:05 PM

Really feels like the struggle your were experiencing is releasing Paul. It must be a relief.

I just think things are extra weird in general currently. There seems to be a lot of extra 'information' available and that you've just gone through may be some sort of transitional phase with its attendant discomfort. So phew!

Belief, faith etc are probably going to be the only way to go in order to fully access what is there to be accessed.

In this vein, has FutureHi looked at the boy, Palden Dorje, who has been meditating in Nepal for about eight months. What do you and your readers make of this/that?

Posted by: ThisisReallyhappening at February 23, 2006 04:37 AM

event horizon wrote:

It has been apparent to me for some time that the greatest mystery of this 'everything' is not 'what it is', but 'how it is able to be'.

Well, I think the greatest mystery is really that we will never know the final answer. The hubris of scientific (and philosophic) reasoning assumes that the answer is out there and can grasped by our little monkey brains. I continue to find fault in this line of reasoning and I can use the simple analogy that a computer can never create an exact model of itself.

What's left after the final question remains unanswered is simply experience. The timeless moment of awe at the great fugue of creation flowing between us. No questions and no answers. Just ***

Regarding your take on consciousness and the valid questions you raise, it should be noted that the root of the problem is semantic. Your points, EH, are referring to personal consciousness of the self. The consciousness that Paul and others exploring this notion are referring to is a universal consciousness. Think of it as a 5th fundamental force (as an intersting magickal aside, consider the evolution of the 4-fold tetragrammaton of yod he vau he towards the 5-fold pentagrammatic representation of yod he shin vau heh). So along with the gravitational force, the electromagnetic force, the strong and weak nuclear forces, we posit a fifth - a conscious force.

The underlying notion is that our sentience is intimately tied into the very foundations of reality. Not necessarily that what I think is what is real but that my ability to think is a microcosmic reflection of a universal awareness. Of course this starts to sound a bit theological but we can observe that nature is very often holographic in that simple rules function across vast scales. So it would seem likely that human consciousness is but one level of a larger (and perhaps much smaller) form of consciousness fundamental to the fabric of spacetime.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 23, 2006 01:43 PM

Back to the original point of the post, and to once again bring in the magickal principles, belief can be foolhearty or it can be accurate. If one believes that one can fly, they will quickly realize their will in a heap of bones and blood on the pavement below. But if one believes that they can create a machine that will allow them to fly, with sufficient focus of will it will come to pass.

The belief of one's personal will must align with the universal Will. This is analogous to the two forms of the self: the personal self and the universal Self. When the two are aligned, great magick is afoot and one can truly bend reality. This is the dialectic between spirit and matter, inspiration and technology. Would you have thought, 15 years ago, that the world would be interconnected by a vast yet invisible web of information accesible by anyone with the appropriate technology? The internet is a manifestation of human will, of belief, aligned with the currently understood rules of physics and technology. If you were to believe that such a creation was impossible (as it may have seemed a few decades back), and if your belief spread to enough minds, do you think we'd still have an internet today? Belief in the ability to manifest imagination is the foundation and the impetus of human creation.

Consider cyberspace. In 1986(?) William Gibson creation a narrative so compelling, a fiction so inviting, that throngs of cybergeeks have been dutifully working since to bring it to reality. Contrast this to the Boook of Revelations and consider the religious right. They too are working to bring the narrative of Judgement Day to reality, make no mistake about it. A simple survey of geopolitics in the Middle East, a look a quotes from Ronald Reagen, Pat Buchanan, and Hal Lindsey, can confirm that these people believe in their myth and are doing whatever necessary to make it happen.

Where people misunderstand belief is in viewing it in a vaccuum. Belief inspires action. Action creates reality. Consciousness flows through all of these.

Posted by: lvx23 at February 23, 2006 01:56 PM

Ivx23 wrote:

"The hubris of scientific (and philosophic) reasoning assumes that the answer is out there and can grasped by our little monkey brains."

Yes, yes, yes. Ivx23. That particular point and, in general, the rest of your post was a very coherent explanation of the idea that 'the mind can never know the nature of mind' even though it will endlessly try. The acceptance of this concept is usually very frustrating for the mind (not surprisingly), but the concept certainly re-occurs in all the long-lasting philosophies that various monkey brains have so far extrapolated. Many of the very very best minds have come to this conclusion - interestingly through many different routes. This concept tells the mind (ego?) that it is not the only thing required for the 'whole' experience, maybe it's not required at all: that it is only a part of consciousness or sentience. Feel mind kick, kick, kick at that idea.

For a more practical explanation, it is worth considering that the equipment used (hardware/software) and the skill of the operator are so very intrinsic to the results obtained. Eg I can't work out how to make the quote from Ivx23 be in bold type. That doesn't mean that the function is not there, it just means that I am not a very skilled operator of this computer, of this program......that I am unable access what is available. So, when one realises that the equipment they are using, or their ability to use it are not up to scratch, there is room for learning or growth. (If what is, and what we have, are adequate we would all still be using the original computers or something.)

It has been interesting to note that some people seem quite uncomfortable with Paul being 'emotional' or 'bleak'. As if he has 'lost his mind'. I think that he is just exploring another part of his OS and it's interface with the larger OS. Paul Version ? I think that he is to brave for doing this in the public eye. Perturbating is so often frowned upon and suppressed. It can make people uncomfortable.

The logical mind must only be a small part of our consciousness, the consciousness that leads us to realise that the logical mind must only be a small part of our consciousness. (It's OK to do emotions and feelings too.) These kind of realisations set up an annoying nested loop (see previous sentence) which certainly doesn't satiate that part of our consciousness that wants to analyse, count, quantify and tick off as understood. That would be the......logical mind.

In his book, 'The Re-enchantment of the World', Morris Berman presents the idea of vertical and horizontal cultures. A simplistic explanation is that our modern society is vertical, very mind-based and controlled and older societies are horizontal, in touch with nature's rhythms and eroticised by their close relationship with the wildness around them.

His conclusion was that we would do well to strive for something at a more 45 degree angle. I think that is what is happening right now. The realisation that when we dance between the vertical (awake, standing up, mind, spirit) and the horizontal (sleeping, lying down, feeling, will) and all states in between we have more access to 'the game' rather than staying at one point or another. Bardo-dancing. That in the end there is only play. I think that is why so many people are looking to more seemingly magical systems for information as well as science.

Our point of power is how we play, who we play with, where in the playground we play and the quality of our play which hopefully gives us some meaning and insight into why we play.

So what about this Buddha Boy guys! Is he not an interesting playmate?

Posted by: thisIsreallyHappening at February 23, 2006 04:54 PM

its simplisity in it self, the mind creats the body and viseversa the along with all we expereance and think all of theis things efect and shape eachother.a refelction of a reflection of a reflection on into infinity untill it simply becomes one thing.

Posted by: corwin at February 24, 2006 05:22 PM

Oh. Well. Oh.....well. Yes. I suppose. Whew. Eventhorizon, I've gotta agree with lvx23 again.

I can't tell if you are serious or if you're just trying to wind people up. If you're really wanting to expand, at least, your learned knowledge or WTF. Not sure if it's worth the time to reply but what the others say is interesting and it's a good exercise in clarifying what I experience as really happening.

As well as being good at expressing dissent, it doesn't feel like you've really read any of the other posts in much detail and already have a fairly fixed view to push. You sound both a bit angry and a bit fearful.

You sound angry because we can't/won't (wouldn't if I had the blueprint of all space and time the way you're pork chopping on) give you proof. And you sound fearful that we're going to tell you to the only way to 'get it' is to take drugs or join a cult or something. (Maybe these things aren't true about you but that's what you sound like.) You sound like you haven't read the other posts because sometimes you don't seem to acknowlege what we've already said and make-up/assume things we haven't said.

EH says "Forgive me for attempting to throw a spanner in the works here but the only 'proof' for consciousness as the 'spring' of all creation seems to come from psychadelic trips, near death experiances, spiritual 'encounters' or other such highly dubious sources of internal only observation."

Who said anything about drugs? I don't think anyone, from Paul's original post to now, mentioned drugs. All of us who have taken the various drugs know that they aren't a total answer and probably wouldn't recommend them as the only path to understanding. At best, one gets useful glimpses of info and at worst they are a trial on the physical being and psyche and cost $$$. Mostly they're just a lot of fun and aid in perspective-widening. Take them if you want or don't take them. (But you can't have any of mine, they cost too bloody much and I think you'd just spin out anyway.)

No NDE's have been mentioned or cited so????

A bit of 'spiritual' stuff has been mentioned as 'a way' but no-one has suggested you sign up. Cellux seems to be keen that his/her experience with Christianity is a preferred way but I don't feel it is too pushy a post re that. A lot of the 'spiritual' stuff is considered the science of other cultures. Rishis, sadhus, lamas. They are all respected psychonauts and they've been at their science a lot longer than us. They may have learned something. We may be able to learn something from them.

I don't get the impression that the people here have gained their opinions from 'highly dubious sources of internal only observation' only. They seem to have read and studied and experienced lots of things that have aided them to this point. You really don't know how any of us have reached the conclusions we have, do you. Have you read any of the bios? Are you actually interested? (We really don't need your validation EH - m'kay.)

EH wrote "Im all for throwing off the sickening mantra that existance is a bunch of numbers and equations somehow manifest, and delving deeper into the possibility of abstracts being physical presences, but leaping whole heartedly into the 'belief' of consciousness as the 'source' is just a jump too far for me at this time.'

Why would you throw away all the 'logical' stuff we have figured out so far. No-one suggests that. A lot of that stuff is really useful and interesting. Why either/or? lvx23 points out that undiscerning belief may leave you a blob. "Belief can be foolhearty or it can be accurate. If one believes that one can fly, they will quickly realize their will in a heap of bones and blood on the pavement below. But if one believes that they can create a machine that will allow them to fly, with sufficient focus of will it will come to pass." And those numbers and equations are going to be useful in building that flying machine or creating world peace. (Thank goodness for the heartfelft belief of all the beauty queens or we probably won't won't get there. Oh maybe they're not really being genuine and that's why there is no world peace. Is that too simplistic?)

Terence's trip is just that - Terence's trip. The reason to take notice of Terence's trip is that many of us feel that he may have had a superior and practised OS and there is probably something to be learned from a skilled Shaman like him. Just like those other psychonauts, previously mentioned. Do I have to split an atom at home before I am allowed to believe modern physics and Shaman Einstein? Maybe it should be that way. (I just don't know where I'm going to fit a particle acclerator. My workshop is currently taken up with a wheel re-inventing project.)

EH wrote "How about I go one better and denounce it as claptrap and go back to thinking about the true nature of EVERYTHING, not just remain totally obsessed by the dismebodied voice trapped inside a meat shell, and the abstract visions of impossible creation as shown to one by various psychoactive substances? 'Reality is the illusion', no the illusion is dismissing something because otherwise you couldnt sleep at night, and actually everything is merely material to be digested and masticated by hungry minds."

Hungry mind stuff has been addressed by me and by Cellux. Cellux wrote,“Everyone who drinks some of this water will be thirsty again. But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.” Mind alone just ain't going to get you there. A bit of belief is needed. Or that is how I interpret that quote. This would actually be the point of Paul's original post, I think.

Then you ya ya ya on about either/or which lvx23 has addressed re balance and, I mentioned too, re existence between various states of consciousness rather than one fixed state or another.

And then you bizarrely conclude your post with telling us to take our monkey brains outside and respect the sky.

EH wrote "As for 'monkey meat brains' please, show some respect, turn off your computer, and go have a long, apologetic gaze at the starry night sky. The constructs of Existance are worthy of more than your disdain."

Yeah. I think we might all have done that a lot. Drugged and undrugged. In fact doing this practice (among others) probably started us realising that our monkey brains (ILOVMYMKYBRN) were not enough to comprehend it all. (Well, no we're saying just logical thinking, a part of the monkey brain function is not enough (ILOVMYMKYBRN). Paul, in his bio, even mentions that his journey of curiosity was kickstarted by the wonder of the Apollo 11 mission. So thanks for that advice but ....done that.

I think if you post again on this subject you should coherently answer lvx23's question "What do you think consciousness is?" because otherwise I don't know that most of us understand what you're on about and certainly won't want to be answering your questions. (I think that would be a courtesy to one of the Contributers to the site.) I won't want to interact any further on this topic if you are unable to do that.

EH wrote "Unfortunatly no one can put forward a valid arguement as to HOW consciousness can be the first, beyond applying attributes of the second option to it. And no one can claim it is the second option, because you already claim it to be an integral and fundamental aspect of a creation we are thus far slowly unravelling and comprehending, atleast in part."

Maybe we can put forward a valid argument (there's that validation thing again) but I don't really know wh//a//.,/.,m.,m/

Whilst I was finishing my loooonnng rave Corwin popped in with a nice succinct comment. Another way of saying/describing the practice I suggest below. (See synchronicity telling me to shut up now.)

(Corwin wrote: Its simplisity in it self, the mind creats the body and viseversa the along with all we expereance and think all of theis things efect and shape eachother.a refelction of a reflection of a reflection on into infinity untill it simply becomes one thing.)

You use EventHorizon as your moniker. It did make me think of a practice to suggest for you (since you kindly suggested one for us). A meditation where you pop over the event horizon, move towards that singularity, pass out the other side and then come back and tell us what you 'got'. I, as a part of your magical global reflected consciousness, gift this practice to you as your very own. Seriously do it. Seriously you're probably the only one who can get the info from this exercise. Seriously, but I bet you don't believe me. And I thank you for providing me with the magical global reflected consciousness to understand and solidify my own beliefs even better.

Fun.

Posted by: THISisReaLLYhaPPEning at February 24, 2006 06:05 PM

http://www.futurehi.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=273

My first post in that link isnt very well written, and my second does not cover every arguement within itself, but I will more than happy to debate the progress of my current struggle with 'Accept God/Consciousness/Infinate And Eternal Presence as the simple truth of how things work'. Please bare in mind this is where I am now, and is meant only as a kind of marker as I try to get further beyond.

Its a very lonely place on the other side of the Horizon, but then I dont come here seeking companionship, approval, 'oneness'.
I see a miracle in the presence of my desk, of my screen, but I dont see consciousness. I see a puzzle at the very heart of the Existance of anything, this universe, Cellux God, your 'magical global reflected consciousness', but I dont see consciousness there, being the answer.

You claim you wont answer my questions, dont worry, you cant. I have rejected your answer, claiming I disagree with it. We can be civil, or we can poke jibes at each other. Let me tell you, one inward gazer to another, that my experiances with drugs tell me that my 'spin out', as you so eloquently put it, shall be long, torturous, and shall have no exit but madness or the grave, if I am unable to steer a steady ship. Read my posts, and tell me my vision is not perfect and my analysis is not brutally honest? Why hide? I intend to assimilate the experiance of absolutely every part of my existance, and study it long and hard, for as long as I am capable of doing so.

What IS consciousness?

My own experiances with 'drugs' have shown me a kind of non-corporeal 'being', inhabiting an immensly vast, perhaps even infinatly vast 'space', a mind boggling arrey of 'tunnels' of choices, of decisions, as yet featureless, as yet still merely luring and teasing with their cavernous mouths. This 'being' is witnessing and deciding, all the time experiancing this trully awsome landscape of sheer immensity, trapped within a 'machine' that is relaying information and is even required for this 'being' to interact with anything other than complete darkness, perhaps even to exist at all.

What IS consciousness?

Well it may be an 'illusion', produced by incredibly complex biomechanical process.
It may be an 'imprint' produced upon some as yet undefined aspect of the 'mesh' of the structures that make up our universe, shaped and given characteristics due to the undulation and manipulation of an aspect of this mesh by quantum level perturbations caused by the structure of, and occurances within, an overlying brain.
It may be the REVERSE of this process, a 'feature', a unique imprint of this mesh of the structures that bound our universe, interfering with the subtle movement of mass and motion, distorting force, and ultimatly expanding outwards from a subtle collection of almost nothingness, to evolve into perhaps a person, or interfere in every aspect of physical existance.
Those are the possibilities I am considering, that I am aware of, but please feel free to enhance my views. I do not know, therefore I do not claim to ever know. It is interesting though, indeed.

But as the Alpha and Omega, whos presence requires no justification, Who Willed Thine Self Into Being? The Creator and the Creation? Yeah, yeah move along. Dead ends bore me, I'll file your wonderfully insightful revelation into the recess of my brain, and call upon it when I breathe my last and im begging to be let into Heavan.

Answer my question. How can anything, including that which 'springs forth' everything else, even BE?
And I shall think long and hard about an answer to yours. What is consciousness.

What was it Einstein said?
"Man must look for what is, not what he believes should be"

I am still looking.

"And I thank you for providing me with the magical global reflected consciousness to understand and solidify my own beliefs even better."

And I shall find no answers in you.

See you on the other side of the Horizon.

Event.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 24, 2006 11:56 PM

Right, OK, EventHorizon. Look, for me your post is all a bit rambley and I'm certainly not getting it. I think you'll have to talk about it all with someone else more qualified. However, you do continue to be a teacher to me as today I learned to do an advanced search and had a quick read of previous posts from and replying to you and now get why no-one else is that interested in replying or interacting. So, turning attention away from EventHorizon now and back to the fascinating FutureHi. Stop laughing guys. Especially you Upwinger.

Posted by: ThisisReaLLYhaPPEning at February 25, 2006 04:40 AM

By all means laugh at me, I find your justification and claims for the views you hold to be absurd, unfounded, unproven, unintelligable even.
The one thing that does ring through your entire 'belief system' is that it enables you to not vanish from the cosmos should you physically die, and still retain a degree of 'aloofness' above others, when they criticise your 'religion'. As after all that is all it is. You cannot point to anything other than a belief that your views are correct, there is no observation of surroundings to back your claims up, it is metaphysics-a-changing at best. So vague in its concepts that any challange can simply be avoided, as can any question as to the credibility of your views. Yet you remain convinced that 'consciousness', something no one has yet been able to define, is somehow the source of all that exists. And when asked to explain why you think that view is correct, you claim MKYBRNS, the only exhibition of consciousness as yet proven/known, beyond your 'belief', cant comprehend this situation.

And you mock me. Not that it matters.

I try to articulate my opposition, or arguements, or questions regarding your view as best I can. I try to point out to you that contemplation of fundamental presence/ability to exist, far from being a dead end, is actually the next, key, hurdle/step/plateau for unlocking a deeper understanding of our existance, in my opinion.

And you respond with 'consciousness' is the answer, consciousness is the core, consciousness trancends this core contemplative issue, but you cant say anything more, and you claim its because conscious beings cant comprehend.

The only thing I cant comprehend is the reason why you so fervently believe this view to be true, although I can guess at your 'motives'.

After all, the very first sentance of the very first post of this topic, "Belief is an Omniverse Operator" is written as if it is undeniable fact, not personal religion. And as I pointed out previously, if the justification for this view is the 6 Billion different views of existance based upon experiance altered observation, then in my opinion thats extremely shady ground indeed for the ultimate claim that consciousness is the true source of EVERYTHING, observed or not.

This is my take on the whole view.

If a tree falls in a forest, and consciousness is required to observe this act, otherwise no noise or action is ever observed, then consciousness infact is required for the presence of everything to be a truth. However its impossible for consciousness to comprehend how it itself can be a truth.

If the observation by consciousness is required for truth to be, and consciousness cannot comprehend how itself can be truth, then how can this truth be observed? If the truth of consciousness existance is not observed, then it does not exist. If consciousness is the core of everything, yet can never be the source of the truth of its own existance, how can your view be true?

Consciousness obviously cannot be the source of everything. This is all I am trying to say.

"However, you do continue to be a teacher to me as today I learned to do an advanced search and had a quick read of previous posts from and replying to you and now get why no-one else is that interested in replying or interacting. So, turning attention away from EventHorizon now and back to the fascinating FutureHi. Stop laughing guys. Especially you Upwinger."

Well I hope you enjoyed your little journey through the mind of me. If not, I hope you had a good laugh.
Your avelanche of self doubt, despair, and shame is wonderfully personal.
Have a nice day.

Posted by: eventhorizen at February 25, 2006 07:00 AM